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[REPORTED] Model Visibility Issues


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Why485's demo is not a MOD for DCS.

It is just a 3D demonstration of my scaling method.

We post this to suggest ED our idea.

 

Happy Viggen's Day:)

 

Ah, got it. I was afraid to run the exe before. It looks good!

klem

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Model Enlargement for begginers

 

Hi All

 

I am relatively new to DCS (new as in from this weekend). I run it on a 19'' 4:3 in 1200x1024. I am not new to AC simulators, having flown many from the 1993 Dogfight, through USNF, ATF Gold, Falcon, BMS, FSX and SF2. While going through the settings menu i noticed the model enlargement feature (which i really loved in Falcon because distinguishing pixels on a computer screen can be a real bugger) and would like to ask any of you for your opinion what level of enlargement should i chose that would still simulate real world conditions the best? I should note that right now i fly with the labels on, but that would only last my first 20-30 flight hours, until i get the feel for the environment. After that i will turn it off as i enjoy my simulators as close to RL as possible (i already fly with all settings on maximum realism, except for comms and labels.

 

Cheers and thanks in advance for your replies!

Safe flying! :thumbup::pilotfly:

Current modules:

FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map......ah yes, forgot the Super Carrier! Shows you how often i fly these days....

Modules in waiting: MiG-23, A-6, F-4U, F-8, Falklands Map

Wish list: South East Asia map, F-4J/N, F-15A/C, Su-27, Sea Harrier FRS.1, Mirage III, MiG-17.

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Hey there!

Welcome to the community. :)

I believe model enlargement is currently still broken (it was broken not too long ago) but if you have questions or anything, feel free to throw me a PM. :)

 

Chilly

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Yeah, definitely a work in progress right now. I just installed the latest update to 2.0 today and noticed that the model enlargement and even and labels changed once again. The aircraft label and dot are fainter and become less faint as you get closer. That is the first time that I have seen this.

 

Your strategy of using the labels on/off is a good one until you get comfortable. To be honest though, this is a simulation and with that, comes limitations. I feel that the use of labels can help off set the loss of vision and situational awareness when using a computer screen. You are still flying the plane, and I don't think labels necessarily takes away from realism.


Edited by =BJM=
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Hey there!

Welcome to the community. :)

I believe model enlargement is currently still broken (it was broken not too long ago) but if you have questions or anything, feel free to throw me a PM. :)

 

Chilly

Thanks! It's good to know and to be here and even finally start flying after a not that short of a hiatus. I'm afraid i have to few experience to have any meaningful questions (not counting the tons of trivial ones) right now.

 

I enjoy it greatly. Normal flight, landings and takeoffs, aerobatics and ACM are really not a problem. I'm having a blast and the flight models (at least in FC3) seam very dynamic and authentic. BVR is more of an issue though, as i have to get used to the avionics and electronic warfare systems for each craft. Being able to visually spot the bogies/bandits before the actual merge (or eating a heater down your pipe) usually helps :megalol: . I guess i'll have to work on my SA in other ways.

Yeah, definitely a work in progress right now. I just installed the latest update to 2.0 today and noticed that the model enlargement and even and labels changed once again. The aircraft label and dot are fainter and become less faint as you get closer. That is the first time that I have seen this.

 

Your strategy of using the labels on/off is a good one until you get comfortable. To be honest though, this is a simulation and that, comes limitations. I feel that the use of labels can help off set the loss of vision and situational awareness when using a computer screen. You are still flying the plane, and I don't think labels necessarily takes away from realism.

 

Good advice! I also like that the labels don't provide any info on he ID until you get close enough to the target. Now only if they were of neutral color until some distance away......at least until the enlargement works. then i'd rather fly without them :)

Salute! :thumbup:


Edited by captain_dalan

Current modules:

FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map......ah yes, forgot the Super Carrier! Shows you how often i fly these days....

Modules in waiting: MiG-23, A-6, F-4U, F-8, Falklands Map

Wish list: South East Asia map, F-4J/N, F-15A/C, Su-27, Sea Harrier FRS.1, Mirage III, MiG-17.

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Just spent the better part of today's off time reading through the entire 39 pages merged forum. So just 2 questions:

 

1. Am i better off lowering my resolution (as far as maintaining visual contact before, during and after the merge)? In the current state of affairs that is......

 

and

 

2. What is all this talk about a 2.5 merge?

 

Yeah, i know, silly questions, but i haven't been around that long :P

Current modules:

FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map......ah yes, forgot the Super Carrier! Shows you how often i fly these days....

Modules in waiting: MiG-23, A-6, F-4U, F-8, Falklands Map

Wish list: South East Asia map, F-4J/N, F-15A/C, Su-27, Sea Harrier FRS.1, Mirage III, MiG-17.

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Just spent the better part of today's off time reading through the entire 39 pages merged forum. So just 2 questions:

 

1. Am i better off lowering my resolution (as far as maintaining visual contact before, during and after the merge)? In the current state of affairs that is......

 

and

 

2. What is all this talk about a 2.5 merge?

 

Yeah, i know, silly questions, but i haven't been around that long :P

 

1. if you want to do this... it's not always better, especially if you go really low, then you might start having troubles with spotting or identifying things.

 

2. 2.5 will have an updated engine and supports multitheater, which means, 1.5 and 2.0 will become 2.5

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Am I the only one, on the latest Open Beta (1.5.6.1648.240) updated (there has been an update going along the 2.0 update of last friday), that find that another change was made to distant visibility? The pixels for objects in 5-15km distance are now FAR more visible than before, without label activated

Whisper of old OFP & C6 forums, now Kalbuth.

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Well from your post history you don't seem to be new to the forum. But welcome to DCS I guess anyway. Also welcome to the most divisive issue in DCS :)

 

I can definitely say that lowering resolution does not help. In fact the opposite is true. I've just enabled supersampling yesterday and having a higher resolution (1440p) on my 1080p monitor already makes quite a bit of difference.

 

My next monitor is going to be 1440p at a minimum.

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Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

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Well from your post history you don't seem to be new to the forum. But welcome to DCS I guess anyway. Also welcome to the most divisive issue in DCS :)

 

I can definitely say that lowering resolution does not help. In fact the opposite is true. I've just enabled supersampling yesterday and having a higher resolution (1440p) on my 1080p monitor already makes quite a bit of difference.

 

My next monitor is going to be 1440p at a minimum.

 

Did you increase your DCS resolution in the options to enable supersampling?

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H115i 280mm Liquid CPU Cooler

EVGA GeForce 980Ti Hybrid (built-in liquid cooling)

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Samsung NVMe 950PRO M.2 SSD 512GBx2

 

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Did you increase your DCS resolution in the options to enable supersampling?

 

Yes. The only way I managed to get it to work without the menus being hidden or the screen being oversized was to set my desktop resolution to 1440p, and then change the ingame resolution to the same in the DCS options.

Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

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1. if you want to do this... it's not always better, especially if you go really low, then you might start having troubles with spotting or identifying things.

 

2. 2.5 will have an updated engine and supports multitheater, which means, 1.5 and 2.0 will become 2.5

 

Thanks! When the engine updates, will it support the current modules?

 

Well from your post history you don't seem to be new to the forum. But welcome to DCS I guess anyway. Also welcome to the most divisive issue in DCS :)

 

I can definitely say that lowering resolution does not help. In fact the opposite is true. I've just enabled supersampling yesterday and having a higher resolution (1440p) on my 1080p monitor already makes quite a bit of difference.

 

My next monitor is going to be 1440p at a minimum.

Oh, i have been "around" on the F-14 development forums, mostly in purely academic and/or lurker role. But i am as new as they get in the DCS world as far as flying and knowledge of the system.

 

In my case, i have a really small screen, just 19'' across (4:3) and i currently run it in the native 1280x1024.

Current modules:

FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map......ah yes, forgot the Super Carrier! Shows you how often i fly these days....

Modules in waiting: MiG-23, A-6, F-4U, F-8, Falklands Map

Wish list: South East Asia map, F-4J/N, F-15A/C, Su-27, Sea Harrier FRS.1, Mirage III, MiG-17.

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Thanks! When the engine updates, will it support the current modules?

 

Yes, the modules are supported in the new versions. Only certain new(!) early releases may require DCS 2.x Openalpha or 1.5.6 Openbeta, as currently the AJS-37 Viggen is not yet available for 2.0 or 1.5 release. But this is because of the Beta early access.

All released modules until today work in all DCS World Versions and should in 2.5.

The whole issue is more about environment shaders, new effects, map engine etc.

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

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Well from your post history you don't seem to be new to the forum. But welcome to DCS I guess anyway. Also welcome to the most divisive issue in DCS :)

 

I can definitely say that lowering resolution does not help. In fact the opposite is true. I've just enabled supersampling yesterday and having a higher resolution (1440p) on my 1080p monitor already makes quite a bit of difference.

 

My next monitor is going to be 1440p at a minimum.

 

I'm posting this with the disclaimer that I have not tested the latest version of DCS. I've only tried the first release of 1.5.6 (as changes to visibility usually happen in big 1.5.X updates) and didn't notice anything different from 1.5.5.

 

The below is from 1.5.5 when the model enlargement system was removed and replaced with the 1 pixel in the distance. This is where the "lower your resolution" advice is coming from. These screenshots are with 4X AA I believe.

 

I can't attest for super sampling because I've never tried it, but I do find that adding 4X and above AA makes it easier to see the dots because they blur out into 2-3 pixels rather than a single flickering pixel.

 

VG4NwgT.gif


Edited by Why485
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Well that's quite interesting Why485. I've been away form DCS for quite a while, so I didn't know they went to the one pixel route.

 

The main difference I've noticed though is in close combat, I.E. when the planes are displaying a 3d model. I find in that case it is much easier to see them and (re)acquire them in a higher resolution, even with that being only DSR.

 

Will try lowering the res again today, maybe Im only experiencing confirmation bias :)

Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

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I do find that adding 4X and above AA makes it easier to see the dots because they blur out into 2-3 pixels rather than a single flickering pixel.

 

 

Ok, just reread your comment and this stuck out. Does AA really work on just one pixel in DCS? If it indeed adds a few more pixels in an effort to "enhance" the image then that would kind of be a must setting in the options for everyone...

Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

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Well that's quite interesting Why485. I've been away form DCS for quite a while, so I didn't know they went to the one pixel route.

 

The main difference I've noticed though is in close combat, I.E. when the planes are displaying a 3d model. I find in that case it is much easier to see them and (re)acquire them in a higher resolution, even with that being only DSR.

 

Will try lowering the res again today, maybe Im only experiencing confirmation bias :)

 

Hardly had any time to fly for the last two days, but this evening i finally plugged in my stick and launched the F-15 instant action. Unfortunately i can't go lower then my screen native (1280x1024), but i experimented a bit with the AA and as this mission provides plenty of opportunity for merges i had a chance to reach the following conclusions.

 

Against a clear background 10-5 nm provides excellent visibility. Against the ground there is almost no visibility in this range unless you are lucky go catch a flicker. Workaround: AWACS calls and enemy missile launches can provide a clue as to where the bandit is. Flood mode to shoot at his general direction even if no visible cues are present.

 

At the merge the 2 nm seams to be the magic number where the bandit just disappears from the view. Sometimes even when going head to head up in the blue sky. Somewhere within that 2nd mile, the visibility goes back up and is generally quite ok withing 1 mile. This was against MiG23s and MiG29s. The Flankers didn't seam any more visible then the 29's in the 1-2 nm range.

Current modules:

FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map......ah yes, forgot the Super Carrier! Shows you how often i fly these days....

Modules in waiting: MiG-23, A-6, F-4U, F-8, Falklands Map

Wish list: South East Asia map, F-4J/N, F-15A/C, Su-27, Sea Harrier FRS.1, Mirage III, MiG-17.

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At the merge the 2 nm seams to be the magic number where the bandit just disappears from the view. Sometimes even when going head to head up in the blue sky. Somewhere within that 2nd mile, the visibility goes back up and is generally quite ok withing 1 mile. This was against MiG23s and MiG29s. The Flankers didn't seam any more visible then the 29's in the 1-2 nm range.

 

 

Yeah, that is where I feel uncomfortable while doing close combat or WEZ In-depth formation in DCS. 1-2nm is a distance where we go and come while doing these actions. It even goes 1.5-2.5nm range combat when establishing mutual support for a lead in 2v2 ACM.

 

Current "dot" aid is activated only when the aircraft 3D model is no longer rendered above 1 dot because of resolution/FOV but that only happens in far more distance/extreme wider FOV situation. In FHD 70FOV, 1-3nm is where planes are still drawn 3D but we start to lose our sight because of decreasing contrast/size. In this situation, no matter how ED brush up current dot system, it will not help anything.

 

Losing my sight because of decreasing contrast is ok if DCS graphic engine simulates the contrast against atmosphere/distance correctly. I am still not sure how can I check contrast reliability so I hold on about this matter. DSR might cheat against this bit. Losing sight while looking down is also natural behavior. Plane pixel size is obviously smaller than in RL vision...

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Did some more testing yesterday evening in the free flight M2000C mission. Tried:

 

1280*720

1920*1080

2560×1440 (DSR)

 

And flew with the AI Mirages in formation and some distance away. Got to say that lowering the resolution did pretty much nothing for me, the planes are impossibly hard to pick out at any resolution at almost any distance, but still slightly easier at close range at the DSR resolution.

 

Without the radar there is almost no chance of finding them at long range at any resolution. The M2000C is a rather small fighter though, so there is that. Even close in within about 2nm, they blend in very well into the ground from almost every aspect.

 

Im still of the opinion that visibility was better with the impostors than it is now. It's a shame that a vocal (but influental) minority pressured ED into getting rid of them.


Edited by OnlyforDCS

Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

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Losing my sight because of decreasing contrast is ok if DCS graphic engine simulates the contrast against atmosphere/distance correctly.

 

There is a big problem with contrast with all LED/LCD screens, especially TN screens. An IPS screen is basically a must for DCS, damn really need a new monitor like yesterday :)

Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

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