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[REPORTED] Model Visibility Issues


Mohamengina

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Yeah, that is where I feel uncomfortable while doing close combat or WEZ In-depth formation in DCS. 1-2nm is a distance where we go and come while doing these actions. It even goes 1.5-2.5nm range combat when establishing mutual support for a lead in 2v2 ACM.

 

Current "dot" aid is activated only when the aircraft 3D model is no longer rendered above 1 dot because of resolution/FOV but that only happens in far more distance/extreme wider FOV situation. In FHD 70FOV, 1-3nm is where planes are still drawn 3D but we start to lose our sight because of decreasing contrast/size. In this situation, no matter how ED brush up current dot system, it will not help anything.

 

Losing my sight because of decreasing contrast is ok if DCS graphic engine simulates the contrast against atmosphere/distance correctly. I am still not sure how can I check contrast reliability so I hold on about this matter. DSR might cheat against this bit. Losing sight while looking down is also natural behavior. Plane pixel size is obviously smaller than in RL vision...

A feasible compromise may be to keep the one pixel dot (maybe even enlarge it gradually to 2-3 pixel) and overlay it to the 3D-Model until we are in the 1nm range and it then gradually reduce alpha for that pixel until we are close enough to see details?

 

Thus we have at least small point of contrast against the background to focus the eyes on, while not messing with the 3D-Model.

 

It shouldn't be too artificial, as the original 3D-Model should cover the "mark" at that range?

 

What do you think?


Edited by shagrat

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A feasible compromise may be to keep the one pixel dot (maybe even enlarge it gradually to 2-3 pixel) and overlay it to the 3D-Model until we are in the 1nm range and it then gradually reduce alpha for that pixel until we are close enough to see details?

 

Thus we have at least small point of contrast against the background to focus the eyes on, while not messing with the 3D-Model.

 

It shouldn't be too artificial, as the original 3D-Model should cover the "mark" at that range?

 

What do you think?

 

I think it would help a bit but also feel it is not trying to "simulating" visibility, instead, it is "increasing" visibility.

 

What I wanted to do was to match the aircraft fineness(how clearly I can detect his outline) beyond 1nm as much as possible to that of RL 20/20 eye vision with my "scaling idea" post. I wanted to "simulate" the visibility.

(It also can overcome non-1:1 FOV monitor setting so that planes in the monitor would be seen with realistic size as a second effect)

 

LFHAVqx.png(Screen shots were taken in FHD resolution)

 

You can see that 3.0nm distant F-15 showing its left side still has 6px but beyond 1-2nm is already becoming a problem here so simply keep 2-3 pixel might not help. Perhaps "dot idea" is to increase its contrast by overlay 2-3 pixel drawing so that it can overcome the lack of aircraft fineness. However, that is where I feel the way of the idea is "increasing" and not "simulating". I can't guess how reliable the contrast increase made the possibility of target detection close to that of real life vision. It is like increasing thrust parameter so that take-off length matches to that of RL while Lift coefficient parameter is wrong and make take off speed broken. Pixel size and contrast should be simulated to as close as possible to RL.

 

Also, if we set minimum pixel size, plane size stops to decrease by distance so pilots will lose their sense of closing/leaving of opponent aircraft, and might lose distance relation to visual plane size. Plane visibility will lack a relation to orientation(seen from a back/front should be less visible than seen from the side. seen from the top should be most visible orientation).

 

Plus, the main reason why I am for "Add Magnification by Range" is because what I want is not an only probability of target detection(I found him! tally!) but also a probability of orientation determination(how is opponent attitude now? and aspect angle relation?). "dot" idea seems only to increase the possibility of detection and does not help orientation determination. F-16 flight lead above 2-3nm distant (like in WEZ-in depth formation used in RL tactics, they fly such a distant formation!) should be still fineness enough to detect when he starts turning so that wingman can follow him. As I mentioned in my former post my idea is originally coming from this research paper and I added a few function so that any monitor resolution or FOV setting can get the same result.

http://www.dtic.mil/docs/citations/ADA414893

 

If the scaling idea would not be a feasible compromise for future official DCS updates, at least I want ED to allow users to implement "scaling against distance" factor by LUA file so that it would be optional setting and can try own equation. Each squadron or server can set what they believe is realistic visibility.


Edited by chihirobelmo
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My DCS just upgraded to 1.6. Still no perceivable difference, but learning to use those auto lock radar modes helps the kill ratio go up again. Not a solution i know.

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I dont know if its been already said, but since last update (I think), the model visibility have a problem...at certain distance, planes are suddenly increased in size abruptly. I dont remember this happening before.

 

You mean at an increase in distance though, yes?

 

I have the problem where planes can be seen from a distance and when one approaches them, the models revert to the actual 3d model and they almost disappear.

 

We should not have a situation where moving towards a target makes it harder to see. The same phenomenon can be seen when zooming.

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I have the problem where planes can be seen from a distance and when one approaches them, the models revert to the actual 3d model and they almost disappear.

 

 

I've noticed this both in 1.5.5 and 1.5.6, its really terrible and I've stopped flying the Mustang because of it. Im BnZing on a suspected german fighter and suddenly it dissapears....:(

 

By the time I find it, all my speed advantage is gone or somehow he is behind me on my six.

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You mean at an increase in distance though, yes?

 

I have the problem where planes can be seen from a distance and when one approaches them, the models revert to the actual 3d model and they almost disappear.

 

We should not have a situation where moving towards a target makes it harder to see. The same phenomenon can be seen when zooming.

 

Yes, exactly this!!!:thumbup:

 

At bigger distance you can see the contact and as you get closer, suddenly, it almost dissapear as the high quality model is displayed... it makes really hard to combat in BFM campaing for the F5 for example :mad:

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They should just keep that in post added dot/pixel on all the time. Well maybe have it disappear at dunno, 100-200 meters?

Plus add a little bit of shimmering to that dot, to emulate some glare. Will help the dot/plane stand out a little more, especially when its blending with the ground - since we lack material definition to separate it from the environment.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Can you guys tell me if it happens in 2.0 too?

 

 

I have the problem where planes can be seen from a distance and when one approaches them, the models revert to the actual 3d model and they almost disappear.

 

We should not have a situation where moving towards a target makes it harder to see. The same phenomenon can be seen when zooming.

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No idea, maybe someone with 2.0 installed can comment. I haven't bothered to install 2.0 since coming back to DCS. Waiting for the 1.5.X -> 2.X merge.

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At least I didn't see such a behavior even in 1.5, I still haven't checked 2.0 but would there be? Seems 1.5.5 to 1.5.6 changed dot color to transit more continuously to a 3D model which made a dot less visible.

 

While I am checking this visibility behavior I started to make a video which describes how FOV/Resolution work for simulator, How a dot is working for DCS now, Shows

Prediction image what it looks like if my scaling idea or any other idea mentioned here were implemented to DCS. See you in a few weeks.


Edited by chihirobelmo
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Yes, it's there. Exactly as Boris and others have described it. Even I described it many pages ago, still in 1.5.5.

 

You can see clearly the dot against the sky and even against terrain, because it's pitch black, so it contrasts. The dot is even visible behind clouds. If the enemy is far but not enough to be a dot, zooming out turns him into the dot and makes him visible. The sad part is that when the enemy gets closer, or when you zoom in, he becomes invisible again due to the plane model not contrasting enough against the sky or terrain.

 

Everything is now backwards, you see them when they are outside visible range and you don't see them when they are within visible range. Not to mention the black dot happens to missles too, I now see my missles hit or miss the enemy 20+ km far and also see enemy missles incoming from that far. The missles are exactly equal to the planes at distance (black dot).

 

The fact that expert people don't see this really worries me. You guys are not playing with labels on, are you?


Edited by PeaceSells
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Yes, it's there. Exactly as Boris and others have described it. Even I described it many pages ago, still in 1.5.

 

You can see clearly the dot against the sky and even against terrain, because it's pitch black, so it contrasts. The dot is even visible behind clouds. If the enemy is far but not enough to be a dot, zooming out turns him into the dot and makes him visible. The sad part is that when the enemy gets closer, or when you zoom in, he becomes invisible again due to the plane model not contrasting enough against the sky or terrain.

 

Everything is now backwards, you see them when they are outside visible range and you don't see them when they are within visible range. Not to mention the black dot happens to missles too, I now see my missles hit or miss the enemy 20+ km far and also see enemy missles incoming from that far. The missles are exactly equal to the planes at distance (black dot).

 

The fact that expert people don't see this really worries me. You guys are not playing with labels on, are you?

 

+1

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I think a lot of people who never venture online to play, or probably even visit the forums play with the labels turned on. Please correct me if Im wrong, but I think it's the default setting when first installing DCS World too. (Labels are ticked to on in the settings by default)

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Or close your eyes to the monitor enough...

9OQMCBW.png

 

I was said from an Oculus user "Even in Oculus they are visible. It's only matter of skill." well, I guess it's more because VR device provides 1:1 FOV. We had a different image FOV size.

 

If I were to fly with FOV70, monitor width*0.72 distance would be a good place to position my head. At there, things are seen the equal angular size to VR(and real). I could barely maintain tally 1.5-3.0nm distance at that position.(but be careful it is only representing correct angular size but not fineness)

 

Agug4xP.png

 

However, if I keep playing DCS with such a close distance to the monitor my eyesight should get worse.

 

I guess current "keep dot" method is implemented to help VR user who's FOV is fixed to 110 and thus things get smaller in a shorter distance than in usual monitor. Rather than to see far enough things. Without the dot, smaller than 1-pixel tally will disappear, than VR users will lose sight of tally shorter than monitor users, that might be why it is now enabled regardless of server imposter setting. But They also could not determine where to stop displaying a dot is good for realistic visibility, so the dot will be seen the same contrast and same size even in the 50km distance, is also breaking the reality.

 

I was also said by the Oculus user "Now things can be seen even in the 50km distance, in DCS getting sight of tally is becoming much easier than before." Yes, that should be...


Edited by chihirobelmo
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Everything is now backwards, you see them when they are outside visible range and you don't see them when they are within visible range.

 

+1

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Or close your eyes to the monitor enough...

 

Yes but that's not a viable solution, it's extremely harmful for your eyes. Point is things should be visible at visible range, and not visible out of visible range. Not really that compliacated...

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  • 2 weeks later...

Elephant in the room - Spotting & Clouds

 

Hi Chaps,

 

I know this point comes up now and again however I cannot recall an official response to the issues?

 

Now I have heard that clouds will at some point be upgraded and hopefully solve the sync issue.

 

What about spotting, right now as a VR user unless the label mod that is used is enabled I cannot see anything until I am about to crash into them!

 

Last time I had my eyes checked I had almost perfect vision, that was sometime ago though I admit... :music_whistling: still I have better eyesight than most people that I know even if they are wearing glasses/lenses.

 

So is there any plans to improve spotting, I appreciate as a sim built originally around modern warfare the need for spotting with the Mk1 eyeball was not high on the list however for WWII sim this area needs a lot of work :noexpression:

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I hope ED has something up their sleeves for 2.5

 

Matt didn't really mention anything with regards to spotting in his stream which was dissapointing, and ED seems to have given up on the method they first tried to implement. (Under pressure from overzealous forum warriors, who said it wasn't "realistic")

 

However I believe they are aware of the issue. If they want DCS to become hugely popular, they will need to address this.

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Any news on whether this is still being worked on by ED, or is this something that's on the "back burner" so to speak until the 2.5 merge?

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You don't have to be a VR user to find it extremely difficult to spot aircraft in DCS compared to other flight sims. It's also easy to lose sight of aircraft when you have already sighted them. You cannot see and track what is not drawn on your display.

P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

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Agreed. The air-to-air aircraft spotting visibility is the biggest issue for me and will be the deciding factor, after the 'great merge' and edge release, as to whether DCS delivers a flight simulator that I can continue with as my sim of choice. Could be the same for many other WWII air combat sim fans that have dropped by recently to sample what DCS has to offer.

 

I am not interested in modern jets, so WWII and early vintage jets (no missiles) are my passion. I dipped my toe in the DCS waters a short while ago to see if WWII could be delivered by DCS and I hope they can do it; however, current air-to-air spotting is so far from anything simulating real life capability that I may need to return to other flight simulator products if there is no joy for us on this issue.

 

Without feedback from the developers on commitment, progress or intentions regarding this issue, I am losing confidence with each week that goes by as we near the release of the Normandy map and the eventual 'great merge'. I am trying to keep faith with DCS, but the elephant in the room is ever present at the moment.

 

Happy landings,

 

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