Su-27 and Mig-29 burnthrough

[tflash]

I fly one Su-27 against a jamming F-16 at 3000 meters altitude.

I achieve burnthrough at somewhat 24.4 km.

 

When I swap the Su-27 with a Mig-29S, burnthrough occurs roughly at the same distance.

 

This I find strange, since the radar dish of the Flanker is much, much larger than that of the smaller Mig-29S (If you ever saw a Photo of both parked alongside this is very clear).

 

I would also presume that the Su-27 radar has a higher power output, though I'm not sure about that, but it sounds logical.

 

My guess is the Mig-29 should have burnthrough at less range.

[GGTharos]

The power output is the same, the power output PER AREA is lower on the mig (smaller antenna, wider beam angle) .. so in essence you would be correct. The MiG shoulod achieve burn-through at 3/4 to 1/2 the range that the flanker does.

[TucksonSonny]

I fly one Su-27 against a jamming F-16 at 3000 meters altitude.

I achieve burnthrough at somewhat 24.4 km.

 

When I swap the Su-27 with a Mig-29S, burnthrough occurs roughly at the same distance.

 

This I find strange, since the radar dish of the Flanker is much, much larger than that of the smaller Mig-29S (If you ever saw a Photo of both parked alongside this is very clear).

 

I would also presume that the Su-27 radar has a higher power output, though I'm not sure about that, but it sounds logical.

 

My guess is the Mig-29 should have burnthrough at less range.

 

 

I don’t know about the old radar from post-Soviet radar but MiG-29 and Su-27 use the same Zhuk-ME radar. As a result both planes have the same ECM capability.

Over the past few years, Phazotron-NIIR has built five radars for various types of aircraft with the use of standard units and devices. These are:

 

 

-Kopyo-21, an airborne radar for the MiG-21 aircraft;

 

-Zhuk-MSE, an airborne radar for the Su-30 MKZ aircraft;

 

-Zhuk, an airborne radar for the F-8IIM aircraft;

 

-Arbalet, an airborne radar for the Ka-50 and Ka-52 helicopters.

 

-Zhuk-ME radar intended for the mid-class MiG-29 SMT2

à The Zhuk-ME radar’s design provides for installation in the MiG-29 and Su-27 aircraft.

 

 

About the post-Soviet radars (modelled by ED) you and GG are right.:thumbup:

[GGTharos]

I think they always used the same radar, just different antenna size ... so the issue is really nothing other than power/area. :)

[suntrace1]

 

-Arbalet, an airborne radar for the Ka-50 and Ka-52 helicopters.

 

 

I'm confused - does Ka-50 really have a radar?

[GGTharos]

No, it doesn't. It also doesn't have night attack capability, an RWR, jammer, or chaff.

[TucksonSonny]

I think they always used the same radar, just different antenna size ... so the issue is really nothing other than power/area. :)

 

Zhuk-ME is equipped with a phased array antenna 980-mm:

- head-on targets: 150 km

- targets in pursuit: 60 - 65 km

- the radar’s tracking range is 0.83 to 0.85 of target acquisition range, while the target acquisition range in close-in combat is 15 to 18 km

[NEODARK]

...or chaff.

 

So, if you get fired upon by a radar guided missile you are toast?

 

I guess it's not like you can do much in a helo anyway, right?

[TucksonSonny]

I'm confused - does Ka-50 really have a radar?

 

No but the ka-52 does have the arbalet radar:

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/aircraft_pages/ka-52.htm :pilotfly:

[tflash]

The Zhuk for Su-27 has a larger dish. It would be completely nonsense not to use the opportunity of having a much larger nosecone on a long-range interceptor than a point defense aircraft.

 

I dont find a good source right now, just a spanish site on radars that states this: "Zhuk-27 (Phazotron website)

 

 

Este radar representa un reensamblaje del diseño básico del Zhuk para la forma del SU-27. Esta versión dispone de una antena más larga que el modelo Standard, quizá también con mayor potencia de transmisión. Los limites de búsqueda están ligeramente reducidos, ±85° en azimuth y el peso incrementado hasta 275 kg. "

 

He even claims more transmission power.

 

http://www.cruzdesanandres.com/radar.htm

[59th_LeFty]

Thats all good, but the versions of the Flanker and Fulcrum in LOMAC are not the newer variants. In this way, the Flanker should have eqiupped by the N-001, and the MiG with the N-019. by the way, the N-019's diameter is 600mm, while the N-001 has a meter wide antenna.

[TucksonSonny]

Thats all good, but the versions of the Flanker and Fulcrum in LOMAC are not the newer variants. In this way, the Flanker should have eqiupped by the N-001, and the MiG with the N-019. by the way, the N-019's diameter is 600mm, while the N-001 has a meter wide antenna.

 

I have no source found yet but I think too that the Mig29SMT would have the standard 624 mm antenna.

[GGTharos]

So, if you get fired upon by a radar guided missile you are toast?

 

I guess it's not like you can do much in a helo anyway, right?

 

 

Well, first of all, by not exceeding some 160kph you'll always be in the notch, so you'll have to be sighted visually. If you ARE, you have some options ... IF you spot the fighter coming at you.

 

If you screw up and you're sighted on radar BVR, you're in plenty of trouble.

 

Staying at low altitude however will protect you at least from radar guided missiles.

[NEODARK]

Thanks :)

[Alfa]

Zhuk-ME is equipped with a phased array antenna 980-mm:

 

No it is not.

 

Phazatron-NIIR's "Zhuk" line of radars:

 

* N010 "Zhuk" - initial version developed for MiG-29M(9-15) and MiG-29K(9-31).

- antenna: 680 mm planar slotted array

- Power output: 1Kw average, 5Kw peak

 

* "Zhuk-27" - same as above but for installation in Su-27 class of aircraft.

- antenna: 960 mm planar slotted array

- Power output: 1Kw average, 5 Kw peak

 

* "Zhuk-M"(added "E" for export) - upgraded version of "Zhuk" with, amoung other things, increased power output and new main processor. Intended for MiG-29M(9-25)/MiG-29M2, MiG-29K(9-41)/MiG-29KUB and MiG-29SMT-2.

- antenna: 624 mm planar slotted array

- Power output: 1,5Kw average, 6Kw peak

 

* "Zhuk-MS"(again added "E" for export) - same as above but for installation in Su-27 class of aircraft - was installed in Su-27KUB.

- antenna: 960 mm planar slotted array

- Power output: 1,5 Kw average, 6Kw peak.

 

* "Zhuk-MSF"(added "E" for export) - based on above, but with electronically scanned passive phased array antenna. May have been installed in Su-27KUB prototype in place of Zhuk-MS.

- antenna: 980 mm fixed passive phased array

- Power output: 2,5 Kw average, 8Kw peak

 

Su-35 and Su-30MKI are equipped with a radar from a different company - namely NIIP's N011M "Bars" - the "Bars" has a passive phased array antenna which combines electronic and mechanical scanning.

 

None of these radars are represented in Lock-on - MiG-29(9-12) has NIIR-N019, MiG-29S(9-13S) has NIIR-N019M, Su-27/Su-33 and Su-30 have the NIIP-N001.....all with twist cassegrain radars.

 

N019 "Rubin":

- 700 mm twist cassegrain

- power output: 1Kw average, 5kw peak

 

N001 "Miech":

- 1075 mm twist cassegrain

- power output: 1kw average, 5Kw peak

 

As far as "burn-through" ranges, I think you should talk to Swingkid about that ;)

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Alfa]

I would also presume that the Su-27 radar has a higher power output, though I'm not sure about that, but it sounds logical.

 

It does not - the emitter output is the same on N019 and N001....only the antenna size is larger on the N001.

 

The Zhuk for Su-27 has a larger dish. It would be completely nonsense not to use the opportunity of having a much larger nosecone on a long-range interceptor than a point defense aircraft.

 

It would be complete nonsense not to take advantage of a larger radome for a larger radar antenna....full stop :) .

 

I dont find a good source right now, just a spanish site on radars that states this: "Zhuk-27 (Phazotron website)

 

 

Este radar representa un reensamblaje del diseño básico del Zhuk para la forma del SU-27. Esta versión dispone de una antena más larga que el modelo Standard, quizá también con mayor potencia de transmisión. Los limites de búsqueda están ligeramente reducidos, ±85° en azimuth y el peso incrementado hasta 275 kg. "

 

He even claims more transmission power.

 

http://www.cruzdesanandres.com/radar.htm

 

The bit about the larger antenna is correct, but more "transmission power" would be down to the larger antenna(as explained by GG) - the actual power output is the same for "Zhuk" and "Zhuk-27" for the simple reason that, except for the larger antenna, it is the same radar.

 

The same is the case with the newer "Zhuk-M" to "Zhuk-MS".

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[tflash]

Many thanks, Alfa!

 

Can you confirm that currently burnthrough range against a given emitter is the same for both aircraft in Lockon and would it be useful/possible in your opinion to make a difference between Su-27 and Mig-29 in regards to burnthrough range?

[Alfa]

Many thanks, Alfa!

 

Can you confirm that currently burnthrough range against a given emitter is the same for both aircraft in Lockon and would it be useful/possible in your opinion to make a difference between Su-27 and Mig-29 in regards to burnthrough range?

 

You are welcome Tflash :)

 

Yes I believe burn-through range is the same. However, considering the complexity of this subject(ECM) and the simplified way in which it is implemented in Lock-on, the question is whether it would make much sense to make such diversifications for a phenomenon("burn-through") which may be much less likely to occur in reality.

 

But it is not a subject I know much about, so I think I will leave it to other people with a better insight to these matters to comment on it :)

 

The subject was discussed at length in this thread: http://www.forum.lockon.ru/showthread.php?t=10967&highlight=burn+through

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[GGTharos]

Yes, in fact it would make sense. The MiG's quite overpowered in LOMAC as is right now - all the advantages, and no disadvantages save for low amount of fuel. It needs to have its radar taken down a peg as it should be just for realism to begin with - another thing that could be implemented is longer STT burn-through vs. search burn-through.

 

 

In addition, TWS should simply never switch to STT or lose a target instantly just because the target started jamming ... at least in the F-15 ;)

[TucksonSonny]

No it is not.

 

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

 

Thanks for the info but 2 posts before your post I figured out that a 980-mm antenna could never fit inside a Mig29 anyway.

BTW, the official explanation by the Phazotron-NIIR Corporation about the antennas of the Zhuk-ME radars:

Zhuk-ME comes with a Standard 624 mm in diameter antenna (antennas of any other diameter are also possible with respective changes in the maximum operating range). Depending on user requirements.

[Alfa]

Thanks for the info but 2 posts before your post I figured out that a 980-mm antenna could never fit inside a Mig29 anyway.

 

 

Hehe - no thats right it wouldn't :) . However, a phased array version is also available for the MiG-29 - it is called "Zhuk-MF". But as I didn't have the specs for that, I only included the larger Su-27 version("Zhuk-MFS") in the list I posted.

 

BTW the larger 980 mm dimater of the Zhuk-MFS's phased array antenna versus only 960 mm of the Zhuk-MS's planar slotted array can be obtained because the former is mounted in a fixed position and scanning is done electronically - i.e. unlike with the mechanically actuated slotted array antenna of the Zhuk-MS, the phased array antenna of the Zhuk-MFS doesn't physically move inside the radome so there is less need for "free-space" around it to allow for this, which in turn means that the full internal diameter of the radome can be exploited.

 

BTW, the official explanation by the Phazotron-NIIR Corporation about the antennas of the Zhuk-ME radars:

Zhuk-ME comes with a Standard 624 mm in diameter antenna (antennas of any other diameter are also possible with respective changes in the maximum operating range). Depending on user requirements.

 

That is correct :) . The 624 mm antenna is for MiG-29 versions, but antennas of different diameter are available for installation in other aircraft types - it is really the same deal as with the larger 960 mm one for the Su-27(and derrivatives).....that one just got a seperate designation because it is being marketed directly by Phazatron-NIIR :)

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[paladrian]

excuse my ignorence of inglish but, wth is "burn through"??:doh:

[Force_Feedback]

excuse my ignorence of inglish but, wth is "burn through"??:doh:

 

Range at which the radar sees past the jamming, and can determine the range.