INS Alignment implementation

[QuiGon]

Timings (from RL manual):

ALN (Normal Alignment)

- 4'20" for minimal required precision (classe 4) (ALN light gets off, PRET light blinks)

- 5'40" for classe 3 precision

- 7' for classe 2 precision

- 8' for full alignment (classe 1) (PRET light is on, no blinking)

when switching from ALN to NAV, PRET light comes off.

 

ALCM (quick alignment with pre-memorized heading)

- requires that the aircraft has not been moved since last time UNI (INS) was operational

- 1'30" needed for alignment (ALN light gets off, PRET light comes on, no blinking)

when switching from ALCM to NAV, PRET light comes off.

 

In both ALN and ALCN, if using STS (Status) on the PSM, the status in % of remaining time to full alignment is displayed in the top right numeric display of the PCN.

STS 76% is needed before putting the aircraft in alert/standby (réseau d'alerte) when doing QRA duties.

 

= = = = = =

 

I see no valable reason to change those timings in the simulator.

 

That seems pretty nice actually. It shoudl be exactly like that in DCS. So if you don't want to wait you can take a quicker alignment, but suffer from reduced precision. INS-precision shouldn't be that important anyways for the dogfight fanboys, unlike strikers who need very precise INS.

[King_Hrothgar]

Nah we can keep this one ;)

If you forget it in your startup procedure then you'll have to wait in flight before being able to use it muhahaha.

 

For the same reason the ground INS alignment time should still exist, but not be 0.

Because you should still be penalized if you forget to wait for it to be finished before taxiing.

I'd say 3-4 minutes is a good value (like in A-10C or Ka-50).

 

This. You can takeoff and head to the target area while the radar is still warming up but will be left without a radar initially if you forget to start heating it before takeoff. You can't do that while INS is aligning.

 

Timings (from RL manual):

ALN (Normal Alignment)

- 4'20" for minimal required precision (classe 4) (ALN light gets off, PRET light blinks)

- 5'40" for classe 3 precision

- 7' for classe 2 precision

- 8' for full alignment (classe 1) (PRET light is on, no blinking)

when switching from ALN to NAV, PRET light comes off.

 

ALCM (quick alignment with pre-memorized heading)

- requires that the aircraft has not been moved since last time UNI (INS) was operational

- 1'30" needed for alignment (ALN light gets off, PRET light comes on, no blinking)

when switching from ALCM to NAV, PRET light comes off.

 

In both ALN and ALCN, if using STS (Status) on the PSM, the status in % of remaining time to full alignment is displayed in the top right numeric display of the PCN.

STS 76% is needed before putting the aircraft in alert/standby (réseau d'alerte) when doing QRA duties.

 

= = = = = =

 

I see no valable reason to change those timings in the simulator.

 

The ALCM timer strikes that sweet spot of long enough to matter but not so long as to waste the player's time. I think that solution should work by default in all missions. This way those wanting a quick start with working INS have it and those who want to sit there for the full 8 minutes can do that too.

Edited January 4, 2016 by King_Hrothgar

[jojo]

Everyone whish the module to be tailored to his own requirements. If devs listen to everyone nothing of the real aircraft will be left.

 

So the easier is to stick to what we know of the real one.

Edited January 4, 2016 by jojo

[QuiGon]

The ALCM timer strikes that sweet spot of long enough to matter but not so long as to waste the player's time. I think that solution should work by default in all missions unless turned off in the special/misc tab. This way those wanting a quick start with working INS have it and those who want to sit there for the full 8 minutes can do that too.

 

I think if you start a new mission (or spawn in MP) you should have to do the normal alignment. The ALCM alignment would be useful if you restart your aircraft after refuel/rearm (except hot refuel/rearm of course) and especially after repairs.

 

Everyone which the module to be tailored to his own requirements. If devs listen to everyone nothing of the real aircraft will be left.

 

So the easier is to stick to what we know of the real one.

This! It's as simple as that: DCS is about simulating the real stuff, so just keep everything as real as possible.

Edited January 4, 2016 by QuiGon

[King_Hrothgar]

That seems pretty nice actually. It shoudl be exactly like that in DCS. So if you don't want to wait you can take a quicker alignment, but suffer from reduced precision. INS-precision shouldn't be that important anyways for the dogfight fanboys, unlike strikers who need very precise INS.

 

I think if you start a new mission (or spawn in MP) you should have to do the normal alignment. The ALCM alignment would be useful if you restart your aircraft after refuel/rearm (except hot refuel/rearm of course) and especially after repairs.

 

It's pretty clear you're just a troll at this point. Good job though, I previously bit. You slipped up when you contradicted yourself only minutes apart.

Edited January 4, 2016 by King_Hrothgar

[PiedDroit]

Timings (from RL manual):[...]

Cool, I thought it was 8 minutes no matter what (not counting memory mode).

[baltic_dragon]

Everyone which the module to be tailored to his own requirements. If devs listen to everyone nothing of the real aircraft will be left.

 

So the easier is to stick to what we know of the real one.

 

I totally agree! +1

[dapits]

:music_whistling:

 

Every one has the right to have his opinion respected..:thumbup:

 

Mine is that I see absolutely no interrest in looking at my PC doing Nothing just waiting for a green light saying you can go, the INS is aligned...:cry:

 

That would totally kill my interrest for this module..

 

I am NOT a real fighter pilot of the real world training to be integrated in a real world squadron...

I am just a simmer who is doing it at home to enjoy flying this beast which otherwise I would not even approach.

 

HAVING to align the INS to make it work makes perfect sense... on that, I totally agree

:smartass:

(It gives a real feeling that the system is simulated and is taking some time to work.)

 

but HAVING to wait for ever does not make any..

 

Plus, I am an INTENSIVE mission maker on the editor..

So if I have to test my missions developement and wait 8 minutes every time I launch the sim,

Then I will be VERY pissed that some people denied me the right to be "a little unrealistic"

in MY home.:mad:

 

This sim is made for all of us, not just a few people wanting EVERY ONE to wait 8 minutes just because it is realistic.

 

And I don't see anything wrong in making it an option so that if you are so attached to this piece of realism, then you can force it on YOUR server...

 

But don't force it in MY home..

 

As long as we HAVE the choice, I see no problem in guys waiting 8 minutes because they like it

and other guys waiting less...

IRL i am working in the real pilots formation business,

our Professional simulators all have an option for "quick alignment" of the IRS, because sometimes you want to train on Something else than just wait..

 

In this simulator, you have options (example : the radio realistic/assisted)

Personaly, I am happy that people who like realism CAN set this option ON

But I am also happy that it can be turned OFF

As long as we have the choice... :D

 

(This really reminds me of the discussion about a pilot showing in the cockpit...

it is a matter of choice... if you can choose, then every one is happy..)

 

And it does not kill your experience of realism to have other people at home doing Something else than you do.

 

It is all about having the Choice... :smilewink:

 

But then again... this is just my opinion :music_whistling:

[PiedDroit]

...

Good points! Maybe if the mission can be tested with the minimal alignement it should be OK (4' or so).

The best to keep both realism and avoid hassle of waiting too long would be to have the ability to enable the memory alignment (maybe from the editor, a box that states that the aircraft didn't move since last flight for example).

 

It's funny because I almost posted about the "IRS quick align" feature, I wrote it but I erased it before posting in one of my replies in this thread :D

[OxideMako]

Timings (from RL manual):

ALN (Normal Alignment)

- 4'20" for minimal required precision (classe 4) (ALN light gets off, PRET light blinks)

- 5'40" for classe 3 precision

- 7' for classe 2 precision

- 8' for full alignment (classe 1) (PRET light is on, no blinking)

when switching from ALN to NAV, PRET light comes off.

 

ALCM (quick alignment with pre-memorized heading)

- requires that the aircraft has not been moved since last time UNI (INS) was operational

- 1'30" needed for alignment (ALN light gets off, PRET light comes on, no blinking)

when switching from ALCM to NAV, PRET light comes off.

 

In both ALN and ALCN, if using STS (Status) on the PSM, the status in % of remaining time to full alignment is displayed in the top right numeric display of the PCN.

STS 76% is needed before putting the aircraft in alert/standby (réseau d'alerte) when doing QRA duties.

 

= = = = = =

 

I see no valable reason to change those timings in the simulator.

 

 

 

Neither do I, but give the mission designers the option of ALN or ALCM ramp start. Would give them another tool for specific intercept missions or balancing etc. While also allowing those who don't want to wait (or do a hot start) to have faster, but not unrealistic, start-up times. Thus, you please everyone.

[Deezle]

Doesn't the knob in the cockpit have both ALN and ALCM? Why not always have DCS assume that the plane hasn't moved since the last time it was parked and if you want the full 8 minutes put in ALN and if you're in a hurry, put it in ALCM.

[Kayos]

Doesn't the knob in the cockpit have both ALN and ALCM? Why not always have DCS assume that the plane hasn't moved since the last time it was parked and if you want the full 8 minutes put in ALN and if you're in a hurry, put it in ALCM.

 

Sounds good to me :)

[Crunchy]

Uh?

No, pilot's job.

Usually: walk to the aircraft (already GPU'ed by ground crew), climb the ladder, switch BATT TRN, ALT1&2 on, put INU on/to align. Unclimb the ladder, put on your legs straps, do you preflight walk-around, climb back and you're good to go.

 

My job

Will hop into my pit at home, switch BATT TRN, ALT1&2 on, put INU on/to align. Get out of pit and make a coffee. Ask the bird how her day went or talk to the pet parrot. Hope back in the pit and I'm good to go.

 

When I ask that question to the bird though, I'll be well over the alignment time of 8 mins. Can you extend this to over an hour by any chance?

[TomCatMucDe]

My job

Will hop into my pit at home, switch BATT TRN, ALT1&2 on, put INU on/to align. Get out of pit and make a coffee. Ask the bird how her day went or talk to the pet parrot. Hope back in the pit and I'm good to go.

 

When I ask that question to the bird though, I'll be well over the alignment time of 8 mins. Can you extend this to over an hour by any chance?

 

you wanted realism...

[QuiGon]

It's pretty clear you're just a troll at this point. Good job though, I previously bit. You slipped up when you contradicted yourself only minutes apart.

 

How is that contradicting? I was referring to the different precision classes of the normal ALN in the first quote and the ALCM alignment in the second quote. That doesn't contradict at all.

And I think I can state my opionion here like you can state yours. We don't have to agree with each other, but that doesn't mean we have to insult each other.

 

@dapits: I have no problem with it being an option IF it can be forced by the server in MP. So everybody can have it as he likes. You can freely choose what kind of alignement (realistic/unrealistic) you want when you play SP, but in the MP environment it should be forced by the server. So people who don't care that much about realism can play on their own servers and people who do care about it can play on their own servers. But mixing both would just be unfair, because not having to wait for proper alignment while others have to is a big advantage, especially with events like Blue Flag in mind.

Edited January 5, 2016 by QuiGon

[Redglyph]

Some feet need to be put back on the ground ;) When people say they want realism, it's all about the aircraft sim being as close as possible to the real one, to be immersive, and to allow the users to be precise and focused about what they are doing. Because that's mostly what attracts sim aficionados, they like something a little complicated, they like to do it right, and enjoy the experience.

 

What is a 8 minutes' wait worth in that regard? It's worth nothing, it does not bring any experience, does not improve your skills, is not enjoyable, so it's utterly useless and it would be silly to compel everyone to be waiting just because a couple of people want to wait so long every single time at take-off. Users don't have to fill in flight plans, flight reports, they don't have to start-up or shutdown their aircraft in all missions, so why would you want to force them doing that?

 

If you could climb down the ladder, inspect the Mirage and possibly detect some problem (but there aren't any, we know that), and write them down or correct them, that'd be fine. You'd have to remember to start the alignment first, then proceed to the other tasks. If you had other, longer procedures as in the A-10C, that'd be fine, you can start the alignment before starting the engine, and you optimize your start-up time, it's worth it, there's added value. Not here, there's absolutely no added value. Most people have a job, a family, and would rather spend those minutes doing something interesting, I'm sure.

 

Hence let's just put an option "realistic INS / shortened INS" to keep everyone happy, problem solved. I don't think a single check button on the plane's tab settings would offend anyone, nor take long to implement :) It has been done to translate the cockpit and avionics' language after all - that also was a compromise, I never saw such a debate over it though.

[QuiGon]

Some feet need to be put back on the ground ;) When people say they want realism, it's all about the aircraft sim being as close as possible to the real one, to be immersive, and to allow the users to be precise and focused about what they are doing. Because that's mostly what attracts sim aficionados, they like something a little complicated, they like to do it right, and enjoy the experience.

 

What is a 8 minutes' wait worth in that regard? It's worth nothing, it does not bring any experience, does not improve your skills, is not enjoyable, so it's utterly useless and it would be silly to compel everyone to be waiting just because a couple of people want to wait so long every single time at take-off. Users don't have to fill in flight plans, flight reports, they don't have to start-up or shutdown their aircraft in all missions, so why would you want to force them doing that?

 

If you could climb down the ladder, inspect the Mirage and possibly detect some problem (but there aren't any, we know that), and write them down or correct them, that'd be fine. You'd have to remember to start the alignment first, then proceed to the other tasks. If you had other, longer procedures as in the A-10C, that'd be fine, you can start the alignment before starting the engine, and you optimize your start-up time, it's worth it, there's added value. Not here, there's absolutely no added value. Most people have a job, a family, and would rather spend those minutes doing something interesting, I'm sure.

 

People are different and while you think it would not add any value, then it doesn't mean everyone thinks that. I made something bold in your post, because that is what a realistic alignment time brings additional value for me: immersion. I play sims like DCS not only to learn how the aircraft works and bring it to use, but also to feel like a pilot as much as possible within the boundaries of the simulation.

 

Hence let's just put an option "realistic INS / shortened INS" to keep everyone happy, problem solved. I don't think a single check button on the plane's tab settings would offend anyone, nor take long to implement :) It has been done to translate the cockpit and avionics' language after all - that also was a compromise, I never saw such a debate over it though.

The question remains how to handle that in MP.

Edited January 5, 2016 by QuiGon

[whaaw]

when in real life aligment time is 8 min then in dcs aligment time is 8 min. its that easy.

if you dont want to wait 8 min play FSX

there is absolutly no reason to shorten this time just because a few people want to play arcade.

[spiddx]

The question remains how to handle that in MP.

 

The memory alignment isn't half as unrealistic as the FC3 planes' startup, and we accept them in MP all the time, so maybe this shouldn't be that big of a concern.

[QuiGon]

The memory alignment isn't half as unrealistic as the FC3 planes' startup, and we accept them in MP all the time, so maybe this shouldn't be that big of a concern.

 

I don't think the FC3 planes are a good reference in terms of realism. I still hope they vanish in the future.

[Durnox]

The memory alignment isn't half as unrealistic as the FC3 planes' startup, and we accept them in MP all the time, so maybe this shouldn't be that big of a concern.

 

Thats an argument to rework the crappy FC3 planes, not to strip down the M2000!

 

At one server (buddyspike?) they even forced a complete refuel after spawning FC3 planes to hold them at least a short period longer at the ground.

I personally hope that there will be some more fighters in the future which are more realistic in a way that MP makes more sense.

 

Does anybody know how long a SU27 or F15 in reality needs for allignment?

 

Although I will hate, waiting 8 Minutes - for me DCS is mainly a simulation and should be "as realistic as possible".

 

Btw: there were a similar discussion about the Mig21 regarding the Gear-Lever...

[Redglyph]

People are different and while you think it would not add any value, then it doesn't mean everyone thinks that. I made something bold in your post, because that is what a realistic alignment time brings additional value for me: immersion. I play sims like DCS not only to learn how the aircraft works and bring it to use, but also to feel like a pilot as much as possible within the boundaries of the simulation.

Exactly my point, while you think it would add some value, it doesn't mean everyone thinks that. We are both saying the same. Arguably, I may have exaggerated with "a couple of people" to emphasize my point of view - I actually have no idea how much is pro and con.

 

To me it's not immersive to wait in my chair looking at a screen for 8 minutes, and if it is for you and others, I'm of course respecting that :)

 

EDIT: reading again your post, I understand the "role playing" part, that's a very good point.

 

The question remains how to handle that in MP.

Good question, indeed. I don't have much MP experience, usually the rules are set on the server aren't they?

 

How are the other DCS realism settings handled in such case?

 

when in real life aligment time is 8 min then in dcs aligment time is 8 min. its that easy.

if you dont want to wait 8 min play FSX

there is absolutly no reason to shorten this time just because a few people want to play arcade.

 

Seems you are out of argument ;)

 

Come on, either bring something constructive to the discussion or just listen, but respect everyone's opinion. As for FSX, Prepar3D, XPlane, IL2, Assetto Corsa, and all the sims I know, there are settings for different levels of realism. There alreay are in DCS too, and as discussed before, it has nothing to do with arcade.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Redglyph

[Azrayen]

Can you extend this to over an hour by any chance?

I'm not Razbam's so no, I can't ;)

Just wrote how it works IRL.

Like it, don't like it, up to you :)

 

I would prefer authorizing ALCM rather than implementing a new "artificial" option, but honestly I don't think it's that important.

Coffee+cigarette... yeah, a bit less than 8. Damn, how will I quit? :D

[QuiGon]

Thats an argument to rework the crappy FC3 planes, not to strip down the M2000!

 

At one server (buddyspike?) they even forced a complete refuel after spawning FC3 planes to hold them at least a short period longer at the ground.

I personally hope that there will be some more fighters in the future which are more realistic in a way that MP makes more sense.

[...]

 

Yeah, that was the BlueFlag dynamic campaign hosted by buddyspike. They spawned the FC3 fighters with empty fuel tanks, so they had to refuel first to "simulate" the startup process. Without that they had an unfair advantage over the DCS-level planes which needed longer to take off (except MiG-21). That made it really frustrating for the Hawg drivers to attack an enemy airbase, because when a defender got shot down, he was back in the air almost immediately.

 

Good question, indeed. I don't have much MP experience, usually the rules are set on the server aren't they?

 

How are the other DCS realism settings handled in such case?

 

The general realism settings of DCS can be forced by the server. That's no problem. But this would be an aircraft specific setting, found in the special tab of the DCS options menue and those settings can't be forced by the server as far as I know.

Edited January 5, 2016 by QuiGon

[Dozer_4]

Thats an argument to rework the crappy FC3 planes, not to strip down the M2000!

 

Does anybody know how long a SU27 or F15 in reality needs for allignment?

 

On Zulu Alert a F-15 is out of the door in 3-4 minutes, STORed Alignment (aircraft has not been moved since shutdown) takes about 3 minutes, full alignment around 9 minutes. Pretty much as with the M2000.

 

Could be crappier :)