Success - UHD TV as Monitor

[StrongHarm]

Outstanding, hope you enjoy it Wrecking Crew! Flying is a lot better when the HUD is near lifesize right?! I'm pushing mine with 2x980Tis as well and I've never seen any lag or graphic issues even at 4k/ultra settings. In my experience the JU7500 is much better than any monitor I've ever used.. I'm really loving the size and res. It's about time they made a TV capable of meeting monitor specs. I suspect they could have done it long ago if they saw profit in it.

[Cavemanhead]

Well, I just bought the same TV/monitor --

Samsung UN48JU7500 48" Class Curved 4K

 

Thanks, StrongHarm, for the OP. What you said, "The reason I chose the 48" over the 40 or 55 is that this size/resolution combo makes the icon and text on the 48"/4k the same size they'd be on a 27/1080." <-- This helped me make the decision. I have the space to put the monitor at 45-50", I'm sitting into a corner and running a 30" at 1900x1200 at about 32" now.

 

Got two GTX 980Tis to run it. This is going to be a nice machine, I almost bought last April so it has been a while in coming.

 

WC

 

Outstanding, hope you enjoy it Wrecking Crew! Flying is a lot better when the HUD is near lifesize right?! I'm pushing mine with 2x980Tis as well and I've never seen any lag or graphic issues even at 4k/ultra settings. In my experience the JU7500 is much better than any monitor I've ever used.. I'm really loving the size and res. It's about time they made a TV capable of meeting monitor specs. I suspect they could have done it long ago if they saw profit in it.

 

Hey guys...

 

This is exactly what I want to do and I really appreciate the research and tweaking behind the decision...

 

The area I have is only 38" across so I'd have to go with the 40" (instead of the 48")... I'll be sitting proportionally closer in my pit so the assumption is everything will still "look as big" and the pixels will be packed that much more closely to support good close viewing... I don't understand the importance of wanting the text size to be the same as a 27" 1080 monitor... What does that matter? Right now I have a 23" 1080 monitor so I'm guessing it would look "the same" for me since I'm used to the smaller text size I guess???

 

How about texture swimming, etc... Do you find more or less than with a standard monitor... Also, can you point me to the info on the chroma 4:4:4 and what that means and also explain why only 60 (and not 120) is needed for flight sims (as opposed to other games). I know that is the case but I've never understood why gaming guys get so hot/bothered over 120 when us flight sim guys know that 60hz is nirvana already...

[StrongHarm]

Cavemanhead, take a look further back in the thread. Someone stated that they wish their 4k monitor wasn't so small because the text and icons are so small. People with <30 typically have to keep their desktop in a lower resolution then change it for games. I'm in technology and find the huge screen real estate to be a big asset.

 

Here's some info on Chroma 4:4:4. Essentially it means that all colors can interlace other colors without distortion. http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1869675

 

I've not seen any graphical artifacts such as texture swimming or anything else. Again, this looks better than my 120hz monitor built just for gaming.

 

On the subject of 120hz vs. 60; this would be the one thing about the JU7500 I'd like to see evolve. 4k and 120hz isn't really doable right now (yes, there are dynamic refresh gaming monitors that are more than 60hz, but that's not true refresh, it's emulated). I do much prefer 120hz because it's easier on the eye, but it's a very small price to pay for a large monitor capable of stunning color and performance at 4k.

[Cavemanhead]

Cavemanhead, take a look further back in the thread. Someone stated that they wish their 4k monitor wasn't so small because the text and icons are so small. People with <30 typically have to keep their desktop in a lower resolution then change it for games. I'm in technology and find the huge screen real estate to be a big asset.

 

Here's some info on Chroma 4:4:4. Essentially it means that all colors can interlace other colors without distortion. http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1869675

 

I've not seen any graphical artifacts such as texture swimming or anything else. Again, this looks better than my 120hz monitor built just for gaming.

 

On the subject of 120hz vs. 60; this would be the one thing about the JU7500 I'd like to see evolve. 4k and 120hz isn't really doable right now (yes, there are dynamic refresh gaming monitors that are more than 60hz, but that's not true refresh, it's emulated). I do much prefer 120hz because it's easier on the eye, but it's a very small price to pay for a large monitor capable of stunning color and performance at 4k.

 

This will be a dedicated flight sim monitor... I'd love to use something larger, but 40" is max I can have in the avail space (long story). Will this be an issue?

 

As for the 60hz vs 120hz... I currently run my monitor at 60Hz... What does "easy on the eyes" mean?

[SharpeXB]

I don't believe there is a cable now capable of carrying 4K/120Hz. Even DisplayPort 1.3

Probably the extra bandwidth will go for deeper color and higher res, 5K or 8K rather than higher frame rates. Who knows?

[StrongHarm]

I should have mentioned, the cable is critical to getting Chroma4 and a clean picture. I chose the Monster 27Gb. It's about $100 but I didn't want to take any chances using a lesser cable. This cable has LEDs on it to indicate whether you're in SD/HD/4k. Pretty cool.

[Wrecking Crew]

My gear is ordered and will be in by week's end. Chief said that about the 40" 4K, and he said it some time ago as well. I was going to go 40" too, but the text size is a big concern here. I settled on the curved 48" because I'm hoping to get a bit more distance to the center -- the left side will be up next to a curtained window. Last night I was flying the A-10C above heavy clouds and the HUD text was really hard to see; I'll let you know next w/e or so with a comparison report...

 

I did not get a sound bar since I have a good working Logitech Z-5500 system. I plan to connect it to the TV optical out since the new box does not have a sound card.

 

WC

[Wrecking Crew]

The '7500 monitor I'd purchased got delayed so I canceled that order. After a lot more research, and waiting to see if Samsung 2016 4K 48" models would be released (there are only 55" and 65" for 2016 in the 9000 series) I settled on the Samsung UN48JS9000 Curved 48-Inch 4K. When I went to buy, Amazon had a package deal that includes a Samsung 350W soundbar that connects wirelessly to the TV and my mouse got away from me and ordered it, too. Both will arrive today.

 

WC

[Beaver McFanny]

The '7500 monitor I'd purchased got delayed so I canceled that order. After a lot more research, and waiting to see if Samsung 2016 4K 48" models would be released (there are only 55" and 65" for 2016 in the 9000 series) I settled on the Samsung UN48JS9000 Curved 48-Inch 4K. When I went to buy, Amazon had a package deal that includes a Samsung 350W soundbar that connects wirelessly to the TV and my mouse got away from me and ordered it, too. Both will arrive today.

 

WC

 

Great choice Wrecking Crew! I bought the same model about 6 weeks ago and am very happy so far. Although my Gtx 980 struggles at 4K on most games, including DCS World, sadly. Waiting for NVidia Pascal with baited breath.

[Enduro14]

Great choice Wrecking Crew! I bought the same model about 6 weeks ago and am very happy so far. Although my Gtx 980 struggles at 4K on most games, including DCS World, sadly. Waiting for NVidia Pascal with baited breath.

 

Amen to that need better memory and more of it lol

[Wrecking Crew]

Here are some thoughts on my new TV monitor after a week of setup. I am running two GTX 980 Ti FTW cards in SLI. The primary card is on top, closest to the CPU (i7-6700K, 32 GB DDR4 3200). The two games tested are DCS World and World Of War Ships -- both do not support SLI at this time.

 

I tried the second GPU in PCIe slot 3 with one slot between the cards for better airflow -- but SLI would not come up as an option in Nvidia Control Panel, so card 2 went into slot 2.

 

The resolution is set in Nvidia CP as "4k x 2k, 3840 x 2160 (native)". I tried the "4k x 2k, 4096 x 2160" choice briefly but the screen was too wide for the TV monitor.

 

For most of the week, the Refresh Rate was set on 60 Hz. For DCS, my server is capped at 30 fps and this computer is not capped -- and was getting 60 fps in the game. WOWS was giving 59-60 fps mostly, and dipping down to 51-52 with about 5 ships fighting; with WOWS I had to create a profile for it to run a single card only because of bad screen flashing. I got pretty concerned with the primary GPU temp in both games (89-92 °C) and fan speed maxed out and loud. I swapped the cards with no change. Switching the Refresh Rate to 30 Hz cured the high temperature issue -- now the primary card is running in the low 70's °C. Perhaps if SLI was an option in these games, or if the GPUs were water cooled, then 60 Hz would be fine. I see a little stutter at 30 Hz with everything turned up, so I will mess around with some of the graphics settings.

 

I'm running Nvidia's Precision X fan control software to adjust a custom fan curve to keep the fan speed % steady from 70-85 °C. Also using the GPU-Z utility's Sensors tab to monitor both GPUs. I have to start the Precision X software and click on both GPUs to 'initialize' their fan operations, which I don't like having to do. I wonder what these GPU cards would do if I did not run Precision X? When would the fans kick in?

 

So I called EVGA support. They said the Precision X utility does not need to be run -- these GTX 980's will kick on the fan at 60 °C and auto adjust from there. To run constantly at 60 Hz the GPUs should be water cooled. Running in the mid 80's °C is OK. I asked if running a second 22" monitor off the primary card is OK and was told that is not a problem at all (two people from EVGA told me that).

 

I'll try the 50 Hz Refresh Rate to see where that drives the temps.

 

All in all, I am happy with the computer and TV monitor choice. The icons are easy to read and game graphics are great. The TV is about 45" away. I had to adjust TrackIR curves to smooth them out. I'm also running Logitech game software to control the G series mouse DPI buttons to quickly move across the big screen.

 

edit --> The 50 Hz option is working well in both games. Getting 50 fps and GPU temp is in the 80's °C. Game play is improved.

 

WC

Edited March 11, 2016 by Wrecking Crew
50 Hz

[SharpeXB]

Regarding SLI, as far as I know DCS 1.5 will run SLI, I am running with it.

 

And GPU temp, yes 3840x2160 will push your cards to the redline, I have found Precision X to be essential and setting a custom curve to balance cooling and fan noise. I added the ACX back plates and dual cooler fans to my Titan X cards. I tried pushing the cards without Precision X to see what the stock fan speed would do. Using Far Cry 4 on Ultra. The cards both hit 99% usage and 90d with the fans only going up to 30%. I quit at that point. So I have PX set to run on startup automatically now.

 

WC your system seems similar to what I'm running, I can run 1.5 maxed out at a good 60fps, it performs very well. The lowest FPS I can get it to do is 40 (FC3 Blockade startup, looking to the left, why that's the lowest I don't know)

Try enabling SLI and see if it helps.

Edited March 11, 2016 by SharpeXB

[hansangb]

If you go to the this thread,

 

or more specifically post here

 

There are posts from people have have successfully integrated SLI. Worth a shot.

[SharpeXB]

Dual GPU compatability was listed as an improvement for the EDGE engine. Afaik using it does not require any special add ons like N Inspector. Nvidias default setting for DCS is SLI: On

I've been using SLI successfully for a year or more with 1.2. The only setting I had to change was select the "every frame" option for the mirrors otherwise they would flicker. Don't know how that works in 1.5, I've left that setting the same.

 

I tried the second GPU in PCIe slot 3 with one slot between the cards for better airflow -- but SLI would not come up as an option in Nvidia Control Panel, so card 2 went into slot 2.

Probably most motherboards are the same in this regard or at least mine is. If you look at the owners manual for which PCI slots to use you'll see some labeled as:

PCIe 3.0/2.0 x16_1 slot

PCIe 3.0/2.0 x16_2 slot

 

For a single graphics card you'll want to use slot 1, for dual cards use slots 1 and 2

So that's probably why installing the card in slot 3 didn't work.

Edited March 11, 2016 by SharpeXB

[Wrecking Crew]

EVGA support did say SLI *could* be configured between slots 1 & 3 but that the card in #1 would run slower to match slot 3's PCIe speed (x4?). I'll leave my cards in slots 1 & 2.

---

 

 

The Refresh Rate is 60 Hz, and DCS is capped at 60 fps in the Autoexec.cfg; the primary GPU temp is mid-80s °C using the cards' own fan control. DCS Vsync is on.

 

With Nvidia Control Panel I have the old 3D profile for Black Shark with SLI Rendering Mode to NVIDIA recommended (SLI), Shader Cache to Off and Vertical Sync to Use The 3D Application Setting.

 

DCS --

Textures - High

Terrain - High

Civ - High

Water - High

Visib Range - Ultra

Heat Blur - High

Shadows - Medium

Res - 3840x2160

Aspect - 1.777

Monitors - 1

Res of Cockpit Displays - 1024 every frame

MSAA - 2x (4K)

HDR - Off

Depth - Off

Lens - Dirt + Flare

 

Clutter - 500

Trees - 15000

Preload - 125,000

 

AF - 8x

Flat Shadows - On

 

Aero - Off

VSync - On

Full Screen - On

Oculus - Off

 

Autoexec.cfg --

options.graphics.maxfps = 60

if not net then net = {} end

net.download_speed = 1024*1024

net.upload_speed = 256*1024

 

 

Using GPU-Z to monitor both cards, the Memory Used is the exact same, but the GPU Load is much higher on the Primary, 40-70%, while the secondary is about 8-10%. I'm running DCS with Fullscreen checked and pressing LAlt-Enter; when I press LAlt-Enter the mouse cursor is squished flatter. GPU-Z is showing the primary GPU with 'PerfCap Reason' of both VRel and Therm, but I don't notice anything different on screen.

 

WC

 

edit --> does MSAA and/or AF affect the gradient bands across the sky?

Edited March 14, 2016 by Wrecking Crew
latest settings

[Enduro14]

Yes because sli does not work with the old stock settings you need to change the profile with Nvidia inspector. Take a look at the sli thread in 2.0 and 1.5. I'm currently on phone would link but have great improvement in 4K with settings I did

[Enduro14]

Should get you on right track

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2681946&postcount=225

[SharpeXB]

MSAA - 4x (ADVICE?)

Try using 2x or Off with 4K, antialiasing is hardly needed and it's a big performance hit at this resolution. I use 2x in DCS

 

edit --> does MSAA and/or AF affect the gradient bands across the sky?

That effect has to do with the color depth or color space of your monitor and/or the video source. I don't think it's something you can adjust in the game, try the TV picture settings.

[Windsortheater]

Try using 2x or Off with 4K, antialiasing is hardly needed and it's a big performance hit at this resolution. I use 2x in DCS.

 

Agree.

 

I picked up a 40" Samsung 640D and it is FANTASTIC with pretty good response time given an IPS panel.

 

I'm running a single 970 with an I7 at 4.2ghz. MSAA off.

 

Still messing with other settings to get to a solid 60fps online and in Nevada low level, but 40fps is pretty nice.

 

Note - one benefit of getting a high quality UHD set with good response time is, for certain applications, the option to use frame creation / smoothing to reduce panning judder etc... The price you pay is increased latency, but in a flight sim (vs first person shooter) additional latency is not so important for me and given this panel has low latency to start the change is not noticeable.

 

Anyone else running a single 970 at 4K? Could you share your settings?

 

I know there is an issue with 970's running at max memory (don't actually have 4GB of usable memory) causing skips but I'm not sure how to manage in DCS. Would like to see other folks settings.

 

Thanks

[Windsortheater]

4K UHD TV w/ Frame Interpolation - 60FPS Results for 30FPS Settings (Sort of)

 

I am experimenting (so far with success) in generating a 4K (3840x2160x60hz) 60FPS smooth playing experience while using settings and CPU/GPU that can only produce 30FPS in game output. The cost is input lag / latency, but so far I'm very happy with the results and thought I'd share.

 

Why am I doing this? I want the visual fidelity of 4K. I want the smoothness of 60fps - especially for TrackIR. I want to keep my existing hardware:

 

-I7 @4.2Ghz

-970 GTX Stock

-TrackIR

- 8GB Ram

- SSD

-Samsung 40" 640D UHD Display w/ AutoMotion (frame interpolation)

 

There are two key enablers:

1) A high quality UHD display with frame interpolation / smoothing connected via a 60hz display port or HDMI 2.0 connection

2) NVIDIA card with the Adaptive Vsync (Half refresh rate) option.

 

Let me be clear. The trade off of this is a latency increase. The amount depends on the specific UHD display and how it processes the image. The amount of latency that is acceptable is purely subjective. For me I am OK with latency in flight sims as it is less of a 'twitch' experience and more of a 'flowing' gameplay experience. Fluidity and visual fidelity is more important to me than reflex and response rate. That said I personally would not do this for ARMA or other First Person shooters where reaction / response time are more important.

 

A short explanation of frame interpolation:

 

Frame interpolation was designed for video / movie playback to smooth out the judder that occurs during panning scenes in movies and video. It processes the 24fps (film) or 30fps (video/tv) and interpolates frames to 60fps (or even 120fps) to produce smooth(er) pans. Obviously video and film playback are not games. They are at fixed frame rates, so - for interpolation to work it REQUIRES a consistent input FPS. For this experiment to work DCS needs to be running like it's a 'movie' at a fixed FPS. I chose 30FPS for two simple reasons

 

1) I could run DCS with very high settings and achieve 30FPS in all scenarios

2) 30FPS was the only frame rate I could 'lock' the game at.. more below on this...

 

How I did it:

 

Step 1- Setup the game for ROCK SOLID MINIMUM OF 30FPS IN ALL SCENARIOS AT THE NATIVE RESOLUTION OF 3840X2160X60hz This is super important. This will ensure the video signal the UHD display sees will never be below 30FPS. With my hardware to achieve a min of 30FPS (online and offline) I have almost everything turned up pretty to high or max with the exception of:

- MSAA OFF (frame killer at these resolutions when zooming in). Use FXAA in NVIDIA Control Panel

- Vsync OFF (see below)

- View distance High

- Tree's 20K

- No clutter / bushes (they bother me)

- Shadows High

- Flat terrain shadows

 

Step 2 - Ensure frames never go over 30FPS by turning on Adaptive VSync (Half Refresh Rate) in the NVIDIA control panel . I am running native 3840x2160x60hz, so this feature locks GPU output to 30hz (or 30FPS). I was not aware that NVIDIA offered this feature until I fell upon it accidentally. I'm sure this isn't the purpose of the feature, and I don't know if AMD cards have something similar but it's the critical enabler to make frame interpolaton work as it caps at a lower frame rate than native monitor refresh rate (and dynamic GPU capability).

 

If you did the above two steps correctly when you enter DCS (and watch your frame rate counter) you should see 30FPS with very little fluctuation. Fly over trees, city areas, low fly vegas etc etc... should stay at 30FPS.

 

NOTE - NVIDIA Adaptive Vsync needs to be in full screen mode. Make sure you press alt-enter after you start DCS. FPS counter - should be 30FPS.

 

Step 3 - Enable your UHD displays frame interpolation mode. Every company calls it something different. I have a Samsung UHD display and they call it "Auto-Motion". It has 10 levels of 'smoothing' plus a couple of presets. I just use the default 'smooth' preset.

 

Your display should now be processing the solid 30FPS "DCS Movie" signal into a 60FPS output on the monitor. You will notice increased latency (how much depending on the display and its processing methods). The quality of the interpolation is also going to vary display to display. I can only comment to what I am using:

- Samsung 40" 640D (also the same as a 6400D and 6500D). I chose this monitor based on its response time, latency performance, almost zero ghosting, and price. I was not planning on using interpolation as described above but - it seems to be working very well likely enabled by the core properties of the display. I paid $399 for a factory refurbished unit.

 

Here's a link to review other UHD TV's as gaming monitors that I found very helpful. You'll find no mention of interpolation used like this and the latency / response times are representative of modes NOT using any image processing in the display like interpolation. However, it may be a fair assumption that a very fast, low latency display in it's GAMING mode may realize benefits in its processing modes (maybe...). I can say that this Samsung display has the best interpolation performance I have seen in a display relative to ghosting and blur at a latency level that is acceptable for flight simulation (for me).

 

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/by-usage/pc-monitor/best

 

 

Results

I could not be happier. It isn't without it's hiccups, and the latency is noticeable. The biggest latency issue I had was with TrackIR. I had to reduce the TrackIR smoothing as this was introducing even more latency.

 

I'm still playing with it but so far I'm super happy. 30FPS rendering allows me to have mega detail, view distance and visuals at 4K, while the half refresh rate / interpolation makes everything super super smooth. For now this is my default playing setup for DCS.

 

Thought I'd share.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Windsortheater

[Enduro14]

I will give this a try on my Sony. Thanks for the write up!

[Windsortheater]

I will give this a try on my Sony. Thanks for the write up!

 

With your specs I dont think you need help from frame interpolation to get 60fps!

 

What model sony set do you have?

[Wrecking Crew]

Big thanks to Fish and Windsortheater! I put away my Procrastinators Club Card yesterday and tweaked this system around DCS. Followed the advice from the guys above and now SLI is running smooth and pretty in multiplayer. VSync is checked On with the GTX 980 Ti's set to 60 Hz and 3840x2160 resolution. Also spent time in TrackIR to add more dead zone and smooth the curves to eliminate the bouncy view - I'm attaching the TrackIR profile for a 48" monitor at 44" distance, 'DCS48x44.txt' - RENAME the extension back to 'xml'. TrackIR Smoothness reduced from 10 to 8.

 

Textures High

Terrain High

Civ Off (Use On or Off when developing missions and saving them)

Water High

Visib High

Heat High

Shadows High

Res 3840x2160

Aspect 1.777 (16x9)

Monitors 1

Displays 1024 Every

MSAA 2x

HDR Off

Depth Off

Lens Dirt+Flare

 

Clutter 220

Trees 20446

Preload Max 150000

 

ooooiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiIIIIIIIAIIIIiiiiiiiiiiiiniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiisiiiiiiiiiiioiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitropic 4x (kotkb)

Flat Shadows Off

Disable Areo Off

VSync On

Full Screen On

Oculus Off

 

I took Model Enlargement down from Large to Medium.

 

For Mission Editor work I drop the Res down to 1920x1080. It is easier to see the text and to land the mouse on the different settings fields with this lower resolution.

 

Now we're cookin' with gas!

 

WC

Edited April 11, 2016 by Wrecking Crew
TrackIR Smoothness

[SharpeXB]

SLI is running smooth and pretty

 

WC

Your settings and hardware are similar to mine

What usage are you seeing with your GPUs on the Caucuses map?

I used to see them both running about equal but now one has fallen to around 7%

SLI is set on in Nvidia CP for DCS and works fine in other games

I don't notice a performance drop though, everything runs smooth at 60fps and if it drops its due to CPU load I think and not the graphics cards. I'm running v1.5

[Wrecking Crew]

I used to see them both running about equal but now one has fallen to around 7%

SLI is set on in Nvidia CP for DCS and works fine in other games

 

Yes, I saw where you mentioned that 7%. I'm circling above Anapa at 2500' in the A-10C -- GPU-Z is up for both cards. On Sensors --

Core Clock - 1253, 1076

Memory Clock - 1752.8, 1752.8

Temp - 83, 67

Fan % - 69, 23

Fan Speed - 2302, 763

Memory Used - 3731, 3731

GPU Load - 54, 37

Mem Cont Load - 13, 7

Video Load - 0, 0

Bus Intf Load - 20, 18

Power - 46, 38

 

FPS is 60, pretty solid

 

WC