No one escapes in front of the Russian aircraft

[rami80]

You're telling me if in real life you were a Su-27 pilot in a life or death situation you wouldn't use everything possible to succeed, if you have every sense you'd exhaust your tool box before submitting to the enemy.

 

 

 

At any reasonable distance the R-73 is near impossible to avoid without a load of flares. You cannot fire a max dynamic range and expect your missile to hit if the guy is pulling 11 G. Missiles are like planes as soon as the rocket motor burns out any hard turns bleed speed, just think about it, if you went mach one in the f15 and then put 0 power and pulled a max G turn you'd be out of energy in seconds so don't expect the missile to just magically retain its energy in a high G turn after burnout. With the tactics go in close and you won't have any problems. When I am flying the eagle for example I only fire Aim-120 at 5-7 Nm well within the max range but it gives the missile spare energy to cope if the guy that you are shooting at defends hard and btw I nearly always get a hit when I fire. I think the problem here is you are getting killed and are unhappy about it. Well if there is anything for certain it is that tactics are always changing you have to be able to adapt to the situation to succeed.

 

I'm not saying that, switching the ACS off is only for when the systems fails or acts up. If anything it'll put you at a higher risk of losing. You can't really switch on like you do in DCS, in RL you have to idle so you can see the switch(which is really not good). Extending is the better option but losing all your energy shouldn't be a reliable tactic. I can't for the sake of me however understand why it works in DCS.

[winchesterdelta1]

I'm not saying that, switching the ACS off is only for when the systems fails or acts up. If anything it'll put you at a higher risk of losing. You can't really switch on like you do in DCS, in RL you have to idle so you can see the switch(which is really not good). Extending is the better option but losing all your energy shouldn't be a reliable tactic. I can't for the sake of me however understand why it works in DCS.

 

Losing your energy is not a reliable tactic. It's just a last ditch maneuver to stay alive. Most of the time it gets you killed against a decent pilot. He just puts another missile on you or even better a Sparrow. It likes slow targets but is easily spoofed by chaff and by abruptly changing directions (exploit if i follow this topics logic). But i still get a lot of kills with this bad performing easily spoofed missile. You just have to wait for the right moment.

[Sweep]

Tell me. How to chaff realistically? What intervals? What aspect should i have? How many? I only chaff because i heard/read it defeats missiles. But nobody ever thought me how to tactically dispense chaff. And i did a search for it but still have no clue. I always spammed chaff in any flying game. Because it works and because i'm ignorant on how to use it normally how RL pilots do it. And i even dispense chaff against AIM-120c in this game while i know it's barely effective against it. It's habit.

 

Maybe we should learn people how to dispense chaff first effectively without spamming it before calling it a exploit. But this is probably a futile exercise now the chaff is bugged... or at least the missiles being to sensitive for the chaff. So i go back to spamming the chaff until this is fixed and i know how to tactically dispense chaff like RL pilots.

 

Get to the beam and "spam" chaff, with close-ish missiles I tend to fire off as much chaff as possible until I see the smoke trail maneuver away from me. =EDIT= Also, try to be much lower than the missile or put yourself infront of terrain, you want the radar and missile seeker to be looking down at you!

 

There isn't much of a chaff bug IMO.

 

Remember what IMO means, too...this is mostly an opinion thing....

[winchesterdelta1]

But now do it without spamming chaff(considered a exploit in this topic. But not IMO). How should it be? How do real life pilots do it. Do they spam it? Or is it all calculated and carefully dispensed on the right moments?

[Sweep]

The documents that would tell you that are secret.

 

I like to think that its calculated spam. :) (I really don't know, but that's probably as close as we'll get!)

[pr1malr8ge]

Losing your energy is not a reliable tactic. It's just a last ditch maneuver to stay alive. Most of the time it gets you killed against a decent pilot. He just puts another missile on you or even better a Sparrow. It likes slow targets but is easily spoofed by chaff and by abruptly changing directions (exploit if i follow this topics logic). But i still get a lot of kills with this bad performing easily spoofed missile. You just have to wait for the right moment.

 

Not sure why you think the sparrow does not like high alpha targets. In my opinion if the motor is still burning it loves maneuvering targets a lot more then the slammer does. The only reason I take more aim120s is because of the smoke trail the sparrow leaves that well and of couse it being a sahrm.

[pr1malr8ge]

But now do it without spamming chaff(considered a exploit in this topic. But not IMO). How should it be? How do real life pilots do it. Do they spam it? Or is it all calculated and carefully dispensed on the right moments?

 

I can tell you it's spammed.. but when I get a chance to talk to my SME, I will ask him for certain. I just bugged him few days ago about something else so I don't want to "SPAM" him about chaff spamming!

[winchesterdelta1]

Not sure why you think the sparrow does not like high alpha targets. In my opinion if the motor is still burning it loves maneuvering targets a lot more then the slammer does. The only reason I take more aim120s is because of the smoke trail the sparrow leaves that well and of couse it being a sahrm.

 

I did not say it did not like high alpha targets. On the contrary in a different topic i say they do.

 

Would be nice to know what he say's about chaff tactics. Thank you for asking.

[*Rage*]

The point is if it renders real life tactics futile and ridiculous tactics viable then whichever way you call it is an exploit of the game mechanics, to the detriment of the game.

 

All the tenets of good BVR are negated by flying low (or wherever actually) and spamming chaff. It becomes like HAWX except its got more realistic flight models and loadouts.

 

Whats the point of clamouring for more realism when you can get away with the nonsense thats been posted before. Do you want to just flick switches or do you actually wanna fly realistically?

 

Air superiority fighters like the F15 and Su27 are meant to fly high and fast. Detect early, maintain better SA, and launch early. You can do none of those things in game now and it wont matter.

[GGTharos]

He'll probably say that, like any countermeasure, they have to employed together with some form of maneuver. Usually a low/medium g maneuver ... now what the maneuver is, and how much chaff to release tends to be classified but you can find a few publications out there that might give you a reasonable idea of how older technology deals with it.

[DarkFire]

ED dont need to go to all that trouble. Let me give you an example. Many versions ago there was an update that meant you coukd reliable evade any 120/77 fired at you by barrel rolling. All you had to do was take a slight offset, wait till the beryioza was 2 lights from full and pull into the missile.

 

I could reliably defeat 3 to 4 120s just by flying almost straight at an F15 with enough speed to barrel roll them in sequence. And then plant whatever missile i fancied at their face.

 

It was an exploit. Yet people (me included) did it because the sim allowed and it was ruining BVR. ED didnt have to rewrite the entire seeker/guidance code to resolve it. They just fixed it. Eventually.

 

This chaff/flare BS is the same. Its an exploit of predictable game mechanics that is ruining the sim. It might be ok for the AI but for MP it falls short.

 

ED just need to fix it.

 

Heh, I remember that! Early days of Flanker 2.0 / 2.5 I think? I was thinking aloud really, wondering if the only solution that would be truly effective would be to actually model radar beam behaviour, including all the side lobes and wave shaping, and then calculate target RCS based on skin material, aspect angle, background etc.

 

First issue there would be: what exactly is "chaff" these days? Aluminium coated mylar film designed to burst in a spherical bubble? Or are the chaff strips these days end-weighted dipoles cut to resonate at the specific frequencies of expected enemy radar sets? Unfortunately I suspect that most of the information that would make this level of simulation work is exactly the same sort of information that the CIA / FSB spends lots and lots of resources trying to discover, and isn't available at unclassified levels. Same with the exact performance of various radar types I suppose. Of course there's always the issue of Raytheon or Vympel turning around and saying "Oh no you don't!"

 

RCS calculation might be a bit "easier", or at least more possible, as the basic concepts are by now very well known, as are the general characteristics of early stealth aircraft (e.g. F-117) and possibly also semi-stealth aircraft that are designed to have low frontal RCS - things like the Eurofighter, late-era RAF Tornado GR4, Rafale & E/F model F-18's.

 

It would be very nice to see at least something more sophisticated than the current probability model for chaff spoofing SARH missiles. This is something we'd all benefit from, whether we fly the Su-27, MiG-29, M-2000C or early-era F-15C using the AIM-7. I'd like to be able to believe that my R-27ER, Magic 530 or AIM-7 missed due to a combination of smart action by the enemy pilot (manoeuvring) combined with CM release lead to my missile being spoofed, rather than it happening because the RNG gods hated me on that particular occasion :)

[Stuge]

Air superiority fighters like the F15 and Su27 are meant to fly high and fast. Detect early, maintain better SA, and launch early. You can do none of those things in game now and it wont matter.

 

I've been thinking about this.. is this style of fighting really the most effective and desirable? For covering an airspace and threatening the enemy, sure. But if you actually want to score kills?

 

I'm under the impression that historically most real life air to air kills have been scored so that the target didn't even know they were under attack. (surprise attack)

 

Because of this supposed historical fact(correct me if I'm wrong please), wouldn't it be reasonable for air forces to take measures to achieve this type of thing? AWACS and GCI make it very possible, so wouldn't ambush tactics be the most deadly type of attack, instead of attacking openly from long range? If the target knows it is under threat, it can likely put up a good defense or even avoid the engagement altogether!

 

Thing is.. regardless of how much fail you can find in the missile performances.. a surprise attack from perfect range, with any missile type, pretty much always results in a kill in DCS because missile failures are not modeled. So OP! :)

[karambiatos]

Thing is.. regardless of how much fail you can find in the missile performances.. a surprise attack from perfect range, with any missile type, pretty much always results in a kill in DCS because missile failures are not modeled. So OP! :)

 

Well SARH missiles are in constant failure.

[Mamba]

I've been thinking about this.. is this style of fighting really the most effective and desirable? For covering an airspace and threatening the enemy, sure. But if you actually want to score kills?

 

 

I don't think killing aircraft in the air is a main aim. Controlling airspace is sufficient enough to allow airfield strikes that put out squadrons with less risk to all.

 

I think it is fact that most pilots never knew they were about to get shot. Mostly this is down to massive dogfights where nobody had enough SA, rather than ambush caps for example.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Mamba

[Bidartarra]

I'm not sure of what I'm Gonna say is accurate but modern warfare relies more on ground attack aircrafts to actually destroy The enemy air force.

Fighters do suppress them as in limit their operational options to a point where they are not much of a threat anymore but it doesn't mean shoot em down necessarily

The Air quake aspect of the MP experience completely negates it. Not a lot of ppl are patient enough to.loiter in their fighters covering AG planes and possibly never engaging.

The kill is the ultimate goal in the MP world of DCS. It's very individualistic.

How many times have I sneaked past the enemy to go smack non escorted su25 and A10s? Many a time I tell you.

[Frostie]

The problem with DCS and spamming chaff is the way the sim deals with it, a dice roll compared to how effective chaff is set. If say you dump 6 bundles in quick succession then you have multiplied the chance of spoofing the missile by 6, if the effectiveness of chaff is high then this can mean the missile spoofed 9 out of 10 attempts (or worse) with that burst of 6, where as if chaff was set less effective this may make say a 5 out 10 and to achieve that 9 out of 10 would then require considerably more to hit the better ratio. Right now it doesn't take a great deal of effort to trash that missile because the effectiveness is so overpowering.

 

It's a game mechanic that is trying to replicate the unknown, what should be at the fore front of ED is how to make this sim about BVR and less about spamming chaff to the x.

[pr1malr8ge]

The point is if it renders real life tactics futile and ridiculous tactics viable then whichever way you call it is an exploit of the game mechanics, to the detriment of the game.

 

All the tenets of good BVR are negated by flying low (or wherever actually) and spamming chaff. It becomes like HAWX except its got more realistic flight models and loadouts.

 

Whats the point of clamouring for more realism when you can get away with the nonsense thats been posted before. Do you want to just flick switches or do you actually wanna fly realistically?

 

Air superiority fighters like the F15 and Su27 are meant to fly high and fast. Detect early, maintain better SA, and launch early. You can do none of those things in game now and it wont matter.

Well, I agree with most of what you say[can this truly be that we are on the same page for once?] How ever I don't think of DCS as a SIM when we are talking about FC3 and Multiplayer.. The reason for this is simple it doesn't take 15 minutes to get up into the air. I can spawn in to an f15 and or su27 and be airborne with full arms in as little as 60 seconds. or less if the server pre-arms the aircraft. Flaming cliffs is a game with sim added in as a bonus.

While I for one would rather fly a full system f15c but when you look at the whole picture in terms of potential sales for ED, the "gamey" flaming cliffs sells more then a full system that has a STEEP learning curve. Given that, the unrealistic tactics will always be there no matter since truly this is a game over it being a simulator.

 

As I parenthesized I agree with you that there are things that are absurd. how ever I just am looking at the much larger picture that the few of us who want more realism will unfortunately hurt over all sales and most likely wont get it. I'd be all up for getting full study f15c's and su27s then breaking fc3 off into its own relms leaving the study aircraft [a10c,f15c,su27,mig21,m2k,ect] to fight each other.

[winchesterdelta1]

Isn't a exploit deliberately using game glitches to your advantage? If those glitches happen to be game mechanics i thought to be as close to RL as this simulator can simulate with still some work to be done on it, i'm guilty. I was deliberately trying to not get killed in a chaotic PvP environment with broken game mechanic. What i did not do is research "How to exploit in DCS". I just played the game and i figured out by myself and by others what did and did not work.

And it happened to be the so called "exploits". And even if those mechanics where improved we would still need a bigger map a persistent server and a way to plan flights in game to be able to fly realistically. Cause i'm not going to play a "realistic" pre-planned 4 hour BVR game with no meaning at all when the mission rotates after several hours. How the simulator is now is the nature of the game. You can reduce it.. But that means flying with only friends on a closed server. Just play it like it is and wait for the day most things are fixed and we can have some good more "realistic" battles on public MP servers.

All the tactics and so called "exploits" we use can be defeated anyway by simply being smarter and having more experience.

Edited January 26, 2016 by winchesterdelta1

[*Rage*]

I've been thinking about this.. is this style of fighting really the most effective and desirable? For covering an airspace and threatening the enemy, sure. But if you actually want to score kills?

 

I'm under the impression that historically most real life air to air kills have been scored so that the target didn't even know they were under attack. (surprise attack)

 

Because of this supposed historical fact(correct me if I'm wrong please), wouldn't it be reasonable for air forces to take measures to achieve this type of thing? AWACS and GCI make it very possible, so wouldn't ambush tactics be the most deadly type of attack, instead of attacking openly from long range? If the target knows it is under threat, it can likely put up a good defense or even avoid the engagement altogether!

 

Thing is.. regardless of how much fail you can find in the missile performances.. a surprise attack from perfect range, with any missile type, pretty much always results in a kill in DCS because missile failures are not modeled. So OP! :)

 

We're not talking about WW2. Ambush tactics youre describing are not the intended roles for the F15 and Su27. As I said before they air Air superiority fighters. Heavy fighters with extended endurance, big sensors and lots of missiles.

[winchesterdelta1]

We're not talking about WW2. Ambush tactics youre describing are not the intended roles for the F15 and Su27. As I said before they air Air superiority fighters. Heavy fighters with extended endurance, big sensors and lots of missiles.

 

Yes you are totally right. To stop in coming overwhelming strike flights, bombers and cruise missiles and to protect large area's and escort other strike aircraft, bombers and support planes deep behind enemy lines.

Where do you see that in game? Witch server? If you ever find a server like that i will join you and will employ realistic tactics with you while you bark orders in my headset. I will follow them religiously.

Edited January 26, 2016 by winchesterdelta1

[*Rage*]

Isn't a exploit deliberately using game glitches to your advantage? If those glitches happen to be game mechanics i thought to be as close to RL as this simulator can simulate with still some work to be done on it, i'm guilty. I was deliberately trying to not get killed in a chaotic PvP environment with broken game mechanic. What i did not do is research "How to exploit in DCS". I just played the game and i figured out by myself and by others what did and did not work.

And it happened to be the so called "exploits". And even if those mechanics where improved we would still need a bigger map a persistent server and a way to plan flights in game to be able to fly realistically. Cause i'm not going to play a "realistic" pre-planned 4 hour BVR game with no meaning at all when the mission rotates after several hours. How the simulator is now is the nature of the game. You can reduce it.. But that means flying with only friends on a closed server. Just play it like it is and wait for the day most things are fixed and we can have some good more "realistic" battles on public MP servers.

All the tactics and so called "exploits" we use can be defeated anyway by simply being smarter and having more experience.

 

In that case barrel rolling to spoof a train of 120s head on was fine. S button to repeatedly pull +20g to avoid missiles is fine. Flying through trees to avoid detection in 1.5 is fine. Using rudder to unmask strobes is fine. EOS lock with full range altitude and speed info at +100km is fine. Maintaining lock through mountains is fine etc etc

[*Rage*]

Yes you are totally right. To stop in coming overwhelming strike flights, bombers and cruise missiles and to protect large area's and escort other strike aircraft, bombers and support planes deep behind enemy lines.

Where do you see that in game? Witch server?

 

Blueflag 1,2,3,4 (I think its 4 or 5 running right now). Joint Warrior 1,2,3,4. Once the stability issues are sorted im sure the monthly Red flags will also be in that vein.

 

To name a few.

Edited January 26, 2016 by ///Rage

[ttaylor0024]

Yes you are totally right. To stop in coming overwhelming strike flights, bombers and cruise missiles and to protect large area's and escort other strike aircraft, bombers and support planes deep behind enemy lines.

Where do you see that in game? Witch server? If you ever find a server like that i will join you and will employ realistic tactics with you while you bark orders in my headset. I will follow them religiously.

 

You don't have to play a server that doesn't replicate what you want.

[winchesterdelta1]

Those servers are closer to "realism" but doesn't even come close to employing real tactics/flying you are trying to have.

 

And no that is not fine. But they are worked on right? And some have been fixed like the barrel roll for AIM-120? Right now we just have to deal with the silliness and make the best f it till changes are made.. And than we start learning all over again to adapt to those changes. I think it has been a fine ride like this. But off course i hope they fix everything tomorrow.

Edited January 26, 2016 by winchesterdelta1

[winchesterdelta1]

You don't have to play a server that doesn't replicate what you want.

 

There are no servers that replicate what i like. What i like are big maps on a persistent server with campaigns lasting two weeks or more. Where i can create and plan my flight in game. And fly with people like you fighting other people in a campaign that has meaning. That AWACS i protected yesterday can be used today again... That kind of games. I came to Flanker 2.0 hoping for that kind of game. And now i'm just waiting......... and waiting and hoping.

Edited January 26, 2016 by winchesterdelta1