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Why aren't there today any real good joysticks?


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Not cheap, and as a force sensing stick it might not be for everything

 

Fixed that for you.

 

I tried a force sensing stick. Great for F-16, not very comfortable for aircraft without FBW, terrible for aircraft without trimmers.

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I use it for all DCS modules it works fine with them, even the helos, but yes you're right it's certainly better for some planes than others.

 

How long did you try it for? I think it took me a couple of weeks to get comfortable with it. There will always be a certain amount of personal preference too. Some people will like force sensing sticks, some won't. I guess it's an expensive gamble if you end up not liking it, but thought I'd put it out there as an idea anyway. :joystick:

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I too conclude the same, after some use of MS FFB PRO and FFB2 USB in IL-2 Sturmovik, I conclude that FFB hinder the main purpose of WWII "Combat Flight Simulators", put the gunsight piper over the "bandit", due the "gamey" stick shake when firing cannons in this game. And give up in use.

 

The operative term here is feedback. The motors in the joystick (or wheel) provide yet more information that is missing to the player from the "real" dynamical system that the simulation represents. As such you would want to smooth it out by lowering the force setting to prevent 'clipping' of the response curve due to limited motor torque and remove extraneous effects like the stick shake (or road effects on wheels). Of course, 'aliens' in either type of simulation function perfectly well without this feedback, but arguably that is more game-y in aspect than because FFB is a hindrance.

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In reality, the F-15 stick moves just like your usual stick. Both FSSB mod and X65 are immovable. That's a big difference.

Yeah, one could probably get used to it, as to many other things.

 

Regarding force feedback, that's a topic for a never ending debate in the simracing world where FFB is the norm. Some people prefer only the "pure" physics FFB. Other want it to substitute forces that you don't normally feel with your hands on the controller in the real vehicle. It's more a personal preference than anything. BTW the feedback the pilot gets on the controls of the real airplane equipped with hydrauilic or electronic controls is rather limited. Usually it's trim centering, some stiffening as a function of speed and artificial stall stick shaker. Everything else comes from the seat of the pants.


Edited by some1

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In reality, the F-15 stick moves just like your usual stick. Both FSSB mod and X65 are immovable. That's a big difference.

Yeah, one could probably get used to it, as to many other things.

 

Regarding force feedback, that's a topic for a never ending debate in the simracing world where FFB is the norm. Some people prefer only the "pure" physics FFB. Other want it to substitute forces that you don't normally feel with your hands on the controller in the real vehicle. It's more a personal preference than anything. BTW the feedback the pilot gets on the controls of the real airplane equipped with hydrauilic or electronic controls is rather limited. Usually it's trim centering, some stiffening as a function of speed and artificial stall stick shaker, that's it. Everything else comes from the seat of the pants.

 

I guess you're right, I never really considered the fact that joysticks aren't really analog in newer fighter jets. I guess it still may be present in older warbirds but for newer ones no. I was thinking more of cars where it goes right to the wheels.

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In reality, the F-15 stick moves just like your usual stick. Both FSSB mod and X65 are immovable. That's a big difference.

Yeah, one could probably get used to it, as to many other things.

 

Regarding force feedback, that's a topic for a never ending debate in the simracing world where FFB is the norm. Some people prefer only the "pure" physics FFB. Other want it to substitute forces that you don't normally feel with your hands on the controller in the real vehicle. It's more a personal preference than anything. BTW the feedback the pilot gets on the controls of the real airplane equipped with hydrauilic or electronic controls is rather limited. Usually it's trim centering, some stiffening as a function of speed and artificial stall stick shaker. Everything else comes from the seat of the pants.

 

I think you misunderstood me. I was saying an SFS could be incorporated into a stick that does have displacement. I understand none exist as of now.

 

Regarding pure physics FFB, even with a perfect mechanism the limitation is in predicting what force should be applied at any given moment. God only knows how you'd predict that in a hydraulically boosted and augmented control system.


Edited by SinusoidDelta
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Regarding pure physics FFB, even with a perfect mechanism the limitation is in predicting what force should be applied at any given moment. God only knows how you'd predict that in a hydraulically boosted and augmented control system.

 

Not that hard; as some1 said, there's not that much to it.

 

A general rule for aircraft with any kind of artificial feel is that the controls are made to feel heavier as you go faster. This prevents over controlling (ripping wings off etc) but just as importantly, replicates the feel of an aircraft with mechanical controls.

 

Force feedback sticks are great in this sense, because they can replicate control stiffening, and in aircraft this is all feedback really means.

 

It's a common misconception that planes are like cars, in that you can feel the air through the stick like you would the road through a steering wheel, but it's not the case. You feel turbulence etc through the seat of your pants, not the stick.

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Worst thing is you pay $600.00 for a HOTAS Wroughthog then you have to pull it apart & sand down the ruff parts off the gimbal. These sticks should be sent back to the Manufacturer for Warranty Repair as it is a Manufacturing Fault. Our Manufacturing techniques are so good today this should not happen.Especially for A$600.00

 

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Has anyone seen any FFB projects based on controllers that are not from an old msffb2 etc?

 

There are a couple of them around for racing wheels using servos. These do a fabulous job and if you have used one and felt it's damping, it is so close to moving something using a fluid damping system/hydraulic etc.

 

Even without using FFB these have a nice feeling that I can see would transfer well on to a joystick.

 

I understand from people who have looked at it that it can be difficult as the specs were not well written and I think on the racing front people had snooped the USB data and copied information required to make their own controllers register themselves as FFB controllers.

 

I guess there are other ways, like game telemetry to extract some information, depending what the game offers. It would at least get you some information coming from the airframe which could come through the stick.

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I couldn't agree more! A lack of competition, lack of demand for accurate non-mixing axes (not a heavily sprung "bob weight"), a "license" from the USAF, large mass, realistic appearance, hall sensors (with unnecessary resolution when the mechanics of the stick are so inaccurate) have made the TM Warthog the most appealing to consumers.

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I couldn't agree more! A lack of competition, lack of demand for accurate non-mixing axes (not a heavily sprung "bob weight"), a "license" from the USAF, large mass, realistic appearance, hall sensors (with unnecessary resolution when the mechanics of the stick are so inaccurate) have made the TM Warthog the most appealing to consumers.

 

Were you meaning appealing or appalling? :)

 

Of course a company cannot be condemned for not producing something for a market that cannot sustain it. Hall sensors are great things considering pots often fail before the rest of a stick does.

 

Also, considering this is the DCS forum and the bastion of the A10 simulator its no surprise that there is a good following for the TM warthog around here. That may not be the same on other forums.

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I feel compelled to interject that I am still using my HOTAS Cougars after 10+ years. (Yes two of them are modified but two of them are stock with very low dollar solutions for the over exaggerated problems that many claimed needed expensive mods to fix).

 

The truth is I have gotten years and years of use out of my Stock Cougars using nothing more then a few cents worth of Mylar and some good quality lubricant along with regular maintenance to keep them in good working order.

 

I now also own a HOTAS Warthog and I also love it. Why? For many of the same reasons I love the Cougar. Put your hands on these and you instantly know why. They feel great, they feel real, they feel cold and metal.

 

If the Warthog requires some tinkering to make it last or users prefer to customize or modify it to make it even better this would be one big reason why. I suspect that those people may very well still be flying using the Warthog 10 years from now just as with the Cougar today.

 

There are great HOTAS systems available today and the Warthog is the best and most realistic for the A-10C period. If you want something more I believe there are very expensive high quality options out there for you but in this price range I think TM delivers with the Warthog.......again!


Edited by PoleCat
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I believe this entire thread is based on a loaded question.

 

"Why aren't there any good joysticks on the market" implies there are no good joysticks on the market. This simply isn't true. I am quit pleased with my thrust master warthog so your question is invalid.

 

That being said, If you contend there are no fully customizable joysticks available... I'd agree

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Aye, there are good sticks on the market

 

Low end

T.16000M and probably the new VKB gladiator series sticks.

 

High End

TM Warthog/CH/VKB

 

Other low end sticks (I have had 3d Pro and Saitek Cyborg 5) tend to wear out after 6 months daily use and Saitek sticks in general seem to be a lottery from what I've heard on X52 and especially X55, no QA at all.

 

What is disappointingly absent in the market however are force feedback sticks, which is a shame since even low end steering wheels have force feed back


Edited by RoflSeal
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Well... to me, a good HOTAS is one that'd have enough analog axises to fly a P-51 with trim and ram air/heat controls, and enough buttons to fly the a-10c or mig-21 without the need for a keyboard or some external software such as target, that doesn't have any jitter on anything, and has some tiny bit of durability, there isn't one.

 

the main reason why, is that flight sims and games that require a joystick aren't that popular, they are niche, and joysticks, except the ones you can buy now, would generally last forever...

 

TL DR

 

market saturation means they make cheap sticks, otherwise it wouldn't be profitable.


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I believe this entire thread is based on a loaded question.

 

"Why aren't there any good joysticks on the market" implies there are no good joysticks on the market. This simply isn't true. I am quit pleased with my thrust master warthog so your question is invalid.

 

That being said, If you contend there are no fully customizable joysticks available... I'd agree

 

Yeah, you're right. The whole thing is based on a flawed premise, but if you read the thread, you'll realize that it is not about having a rational debate.

 

I tried to point out much earlier the costs involved in mass production, as well as the small size of the flight sim market, and how this all affects the bottom line, but nobody was particularly interested in engaging. I suspect most will be equally unimpressed with a discussion of MTBF's, the merits of DFM, and structural analysis of modern plastics.

 

People want a TM warthog made out of titanium, with software that never crashes, a 0% failure rate, that is upgradable. It needs to have an unlimited, no questions asked warranty, and they want it all for $49.99 (I'll take 2 of them please ;) ). It's just not realistic.

 

The joystick market is saturated. You have options from $40 all the way up to tens of thousands of dollars for a joystick made by the guys who make all of the USAF's simpits.

 

I've owned an Xtreme3d Pro. I've owned an X52 and an X52pro, and a TM warthog. You are getting your monies worth with all of them. Nobody at the joystick company (Except that USAF contractor) is walking home with a fat stack of hundred dollar bills from ripping off consumers with cheap joysticks sold at an insane markup. There is no Martin Shkreli of the joystick world (Rudder pedals are another matter).

 

If people would like to lament how little a dollar seems to be worth these days and how expensive metal is, that is an entirely different discussion than if you paying a lot for something that should cost much less.

 

People are just complaining, and that's perfectly fine. It is only through people complaining that we can discover things about products that we might not like before we spend our hard earned money on them. :thumbup:

Practice makes perfect.

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Aye, there are good sticks on the market

 

Low end

T.16000M and probably the new VKB gladiator series sticks.

 

High End

TM Warthog/CH/VKB

 

Other low end sticks (I have had 3d Pro and Saitek Cyborg 5) tend to wear out after 6 months daily use and Saitek sticks in general seem to be a lottery from what I've heard on X52 and especially X55, no QA at all.

 

What is disappointingly absent in the market however are force feedback sticks, which is a shame since even low end steering wheels have force feed back

 

I believe this entire thread is based on a loaded question.

 

"Why aren't there any good joysticks on the market" implies there are no good joysticks on the market. This simply isn't true. I am quit pleased with my thrust master warthog so your question is invalid.

 

That being said, If you contend there are no fully customizable joysticks available... I'd agree

 

Full customizable and affordable are nearly mutually exclusive quantities. I think this company deserves more attention as they are reasonable at providing both.

http://www.maxflightstick.com/store/

 

Defining a "good" joystick is purely subjective. The OP's ideal joystick in some senses is polar opposite of mine:

-I want a heavy stick...

-I want force to increase at a linear rate from 'hands off' position ~20 lbs at full displacement

-I absolutely do not want a twist stick.

-Mechanically I want two distinct axes, not a gimbal, no control mixing

-It should be designed with durability in mind and serviceable.

-High stress areas constructed with adequately strong material (Literally the opposite of the TM stick)

 

I think this thread allows us to describe what we want in a stick.

 

I didn't see this thread as an argument or a complain-fest.

 

 

Also keep in mind, FFB steering wheels are somewhat easier to design due to simply being rotary motion. Control loading in two axes is more complex and expensive. The demand just doesn't exist. Microsoft has a history of making unprofitable products.


Edited by SinusoidDelta
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I would have thought, by now, someone would have released a stick and throttle "base" and sold separate hotas variants that are based on the different jets. Just think if you could have an F16 throttle to go on your Warthog. Or, an F15/18 Stick.

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