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Numbers next to targets on HDD


rami80

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The targets that have numbers next to them: are they shown as little circles with lines extending outwards, or are they shown as T shapes? The "targets" shown as circles that have numbers next to them are the members of your flight, the numbers corresponding to their flight positions, i.e. 2 = your wingman, 3 = 2nd element lead, 4 = second element wingman. The information on their positions is I think transmitted via datalink, hence why they appear on your HDD even if they're outside the detection arc of your radar, e.g. behind you.

 

T shaped targets are enemy targets. The bigger the size of the T the higher speed & altitude the target. T-shaped targets that have dotted lines pointing at them indicates enemy aircraft that are using active ECM but that their range is known, i.e. your radar has achieved burn-through. Dotted lines that aren't pointing at a T shaped target indicate azimuth to an ECM source where the range isn't known. Any T shaped targets that are shown on your HDD but are outside your radar detection parameters are being transmitted to you via datalink, either from members of your flight or from AWACS or an EWR station. Unfortunately the data link only works in SP missions and hasn't been implemented yet in multiplayer.

 

Don't forget that unlike the MiG-29 the HDD in the Su-27 isn't just a HuD repeater and actually shows different information. Pay attention to the HDD because it's your primary source of situational awareness. Check out pages 53, 57 & 58 of the Su-27 flight manual for more details.

 

Hope this helps... :)

 

Edit: clarity.


Edited by DarkFire

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The targets that have numbers next to them: are they shown as little circles with lines extending outwards, or are they shown as T shapes? The "targets" shown as circles that have numbers next to them are the members of your flight, the numbers corresponding to their flight positions, i.e. 2 = your wingman, 3 = 2nd element lead, 4 = second element wingman. The information on their positions is I think transmitted via datalink, hence why they appear on your HDD even if they're outside the detection arc of your radar, e.g. behind you.

 

T shaped targets are enemy targets. The bigger the size of the T the higher speed & altitude the target. T-shaped targets that have dotted lines pointing at them indicates enemy aircraft that are using active ECM but that their range is known, i.e. your radar has achieved burn-through. Dotted lines that aren't pointing at a T shaped target indicate azimuth to an ECM source where the range isn't known. Any T shaped targets that are shown on your HDD but are outside your radar detection parameters are being transmitted to you via datalink, either from members of your flight or from AWACS or an EWR station. Unfortunately the data link only works in SP missions and hasn't been implemented yet in multiplayer.

 

Don't forget that unlike the MiG-29 the HDD in the Su-27 isn't just a HuD repeater and actually shows different information. Pay attention to the HDD because it's your primary source of situational awareness. Check out pages 53, 57 & 58 of the Su-27 flight manual for more details.

 

Hope this helps... :)

 

Edit: clarity.

Thank you for the reply, I am asking about the numbers that appear next to the targets. There is no mention of them in the manual. I do believe that represent the altitudes, not sure though.

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The targets are assigned numbers. I imagine this is code that will be used once peer to peer datalink is activated and working. Flight lead can then assign wingmen targets based on numbers of each.

 

Great write up here

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2650986&postcount=33

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Thank you for the reply, I am asking about the numbers that appear next to the targets. There is no mention of them in the manual. I do believe that represent the altitudes, not sure though.

 

Ah, apologies if you knew all that already. I can only imagine that as Rage mentioned it's to do with assigning targets to flight members based on the datalink. That's going to add an interesting tactical dimension to flying the Su-27 once it's working in multiplayer: the datalink will provide superb situational awareness... As long as your AWACS or EWR site remains active.

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Ah, apologies if you knew all that already. I can only imagine that as Rage mentioned it's to do with assigning targets to flight members based on the datalink. That's going to add an interesting tactical dimension to flying the Su-27 once it's working in multiplayer: the datalink will provide superb situational awareness... As long as your AWACS or EWR site remains active.

When it's working in MP, you wont need an AWACS or EWR since planes can datalink to other planes in the same wing.

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Well I don't want to open new topic so lets ask what is going on in here.

Some of the target markers ,when in BWR with radar ON ,are moving from up to down and makes it hard to select the target.

Is it normal ad what does that mean?

This is my first experience with Su-27.

su27.thumb.png.2dbcead1640c19ea1cbcb87653763470.png

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Well I don't want to open new topic so lets ask what is going on in here.

Some of the target markers ,when in BWR with radar ON ,are moving from up to down and makes it hard to select the target.

Is it normal ad what does that mean?

This is my first experience with Su-27.

You have found a jammer (or a few it seems)! What you are witnessing is your avionics interpretation of a jammer that is active. It cannot tell anything but a vector between you and the jammer and as such looks like a glitching line from the top to the bottom of the HUD (and a line between you and the target on the HDD).

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When it's working in MP, you wont need an AWACS or EWR since planes can datalink to other planes in the same wing.

 

Granted, that is very useful, but that would only show you the targets that your flight members can see on their RADAR (and EOS?) whereas with an AWACS up or EWR operating you'll get a full 360 picture of the battle space.

 

 

Battle space? Listen to me, I'm starting to sound like an Eagle driver :D :disgust:

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Granted, that is very useful, but that would only show you the targets that your flight members can see on their RADAR (and EOS?) whereas with an AWACS up or EWR operating you'll get a full 360 picture of the battle space.

 

 

Well obviously AWACS and EWR are better, but when plane2plane data link is finally enabled in MP, it will work in conjunction with AWACS and EWR, making way better.

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Well obviously AWACS and EWR are better, but when plane2plane data link is finally enabled in MP, it will work in conjunction with AWACS and EWR, making way better.

 

Definitely agree with that, having the DL in multiplayer will really help Su-27 drivers :thumbup:

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So I've been playing around with datalink symbology, etc as part of an Su-27 radar tutorial I'm working on. Not sure if I'll include it in this tutorial or a subsequent one. But so far...

 

The first slide is more or less self explanatory. Myself and three wingmen make up this flight.

 

Datalink01.jpg

 

 

 

In this 2nd slide, only my radar is turned on....which is interesting because I had not told them to turn their radars off. The flight started in the air. So are their radars always "off" by default?

 

Datalink02.jpg

 

 

 

At this point, I commanded Wingman 3 (#4) to turn on his radar. He informed me of target #2 and datalinked it to my HDD. At this point, he has not targeted any aircraft. You can see that he is the datalink source and that he is in either SCAN or TWS with no "soft" lock because the #4 is offset to the top right of target 2.

 

Datalink03.jpg

 

 

 

In this slide he has datalinked both targets but, judging by the offset #4, he has neither an STT lock nor TWS "soft" lock on either aircraft. Note the enclosed triangles on both targets' tails indicating that they are being both scanned by my radar and datalinked.

 

Datalink04.jpg

 

 

 

Things are getting interesting. Wingman 3 now has a TWS "soft" lock on target 2 (the offset 4 has now centered above target2), while continuing to datalink target 1 (the 4 remains offset to the right). At about this time I instruct Wingman 2 (#3) to turn on his radar.

 

Datalink05.jpg

 

 

 

Wingman 3 now has an STT lock on the lead aircraft (the Berioza is screaming in my ear with a lock source close to my rear). At this time, Wingman 2 (#3) has either an STT or TWS soft lock on the trailing aircraft.

 

Datalink06.jpg

 

 

Hopefully I'm interpreting what I'm seeing correctly. The datalink sender # definitely lives to the top right of the datalinked aircraft unless that aircraft is being actively targeted. Once targeted, it moves to top center. The targeting aircraft # is always the number to the left side (as viewed from the target aircraft's nose). Thoughts?

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Makes sense. So if I'm reading those numbers correctly, your radar isn't performing a "sort" of the detected and/or data linked targets, but rather the numbers are referring to which targets are being tracked by which wingman or wingmen?

 

This will mean then that the target assignment must be decided manually unless the flight lead is happy with the "sort" as it naturally takes place, which to my mind is consistent with the translation of the Russian flight manual for the Su-27.

 

To answer your first question, yes, I think by default every flight member has radar & IRST off, i.e. they're operating in NAV master mode.

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Makes sense. So if I'm reading those numbers correctly, your radar isn't performing a "sort" of the detected and/or data linked targets, but rather the numbers are referring to which targets are being tracked by which wingman or wingmen?

...

My radar performed the initial sort and it remained the same until the last slide. What you don't know is that after telling Wingman 3 to turn on his radar, his number replaced Wingman 3's number to the right rear of the trailing aircraft (target #1). The target numbers remained the same up through that time. I then locked the trailing target and told him to "Attack my target". After unlocking the trailing target, I glanced down at the HDD again and noticed that the target numbers had reversed as you see in the final image. This could be an issue at some point. For the moment, it's not a big deal.

 

 

...

 

To answer your first question, yes, I think by default every flight member has radar & IRST off, i.e. they're operating in NAV master mode.

I think I might have known that at some point in the past. Sounds vaguely familiar. The first time I ran the mission I couldn't understand why they weren't attacking at long range, when told to. Then the penny dropped...

 

Anyway, here's the mission video so that you can see the progression yourself. Split screen HUD/HDD:

 


Edited by Ironhand

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My radar performed the initial sort and it remained the same until the last slide. What you don't know is that after telling Wingman 3 to turn on his radar, his number replaced Wingman 3's number to the right rear of the trailing aircraft (target #1). The target numbers remained the same up through that time. I then locked the trailing target and told him to "Attack my target". After unlocking the trailing target, I glanced down at the HDD again and noticed that the target numbers had reversed as you see in the final image. This could be an issue at some point. For the moment, it's not a big deal.

 

 

 

I think I might have known that at some point in the past. Sounds vaguely familiar. The first time I ran the mission I couldn't understand why they weren't attacking at long range, when told to. Then the penny dropped...

 

Anyway, here's the mission video so that you can see the progression yourself. Split screen HUD/HDD:

 

 

Ah, having viewed the video that makes more sense now. The thing I'm having difficulty with is understanding how the radar performs the sort: it appeared to designate the furthest target as target #1, even though both targets appeared to be at the same altitude & speed. :confused:

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...The thing I'm having difficulty with is understanding how the radar performs the sort: it appeared to designate the furthest target as target #1, even though both targets appeared to be at the same altitude & speed. :confused:

I'm thinking that it simply numbers them in the order in which it "sees" them. Let's say you have two contacts with the furthest away labeled #1 and the closest as #2. Then you lose contact with the furthest. Now the closest becomes #1 and, when you regain the farthest, it becomes #2. Then, if a third aircraft suddenly pops up in between those two, it becomes #3, etc.

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I'm thinking that it simply numbers them in the order in which it "sees" them. Let's say you have two contacts with the furthest away labeled #1 and the closest as #2. Then you lose contact with the furthest. Now the closest becomes #1 and, when you regain the farthest, it becomes #2. Then, if a third aircraft suddenly pops up in between those two, it becomes #3, etc.

 

Makes sense. And I suppose it's not entirely unreasonable to assume that the first detected target would likely be one of if not the first to enter your missile WEZ, or in the case of a cold aspect target and a tail chase, be the primary target of interest. I guess this would assume that the pilot is using the appropriate PRF mode for the given situation though.

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I for one welcome our new datalink overlords. As someone who enjoys all of the FC3 fighter aircraft, I think that further implementing this partially done feature on the Su-27 is something that everyone would like. An upgraded cockpit (partially clickable) and enhanced avionics, like what is mentioned in this thread, is a must buy module for me. ED could release a version of SU-27 with a few clickable features and a more realistic and complete implementation of the avionics, with the same external and flight model, and I would be all over that. There could still be FC3, but with the option of FC3 plus if you want a detailed experience. I think that would strike the balance between sim quality and accessibility that will make DCS even better.

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Good right up Ironhand.

 

But how do you differentiate between a wingman having a soft TWS lock on a target or an STT lock since both can display as the wingmans number on the bottom left?

 

Unless I have it wrong.

 

There doesn't appear to be any difference between a given wingman having TWS soft lock and the same wingman having STT lock - in either case the relevant wingman number moves from top right to top centre of the target indicator.

 

Slightly O/T: does the datalink exchange information about IRST targets or only radar contacts?

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So what does the wingmans number moving to the bottom left indicate?

 

I was wrong, I think it is possible to differentiate between a TWS and STT lock but it's a bit non-obvious & took me a while to figure this out:

 

If I've read it correctly, a number appearing centre above the target icon indicates a target is being tracked, not necessarily locked, by a given wingman. A number appearing to the lower left indicates that the target in question is being targeted by a given wingman. So, if the number directly above a target is the same as the number to the lower left, then we can conclude that the wingman in question has a STT lock on that target. If the number above the target icon and the number to the bottom left are different, then I think that would indicate that that the wingman number shown above has a TWS lock whereas the wingman number to the bottom left has a STT lock.

 

I think. That's some very non-obvious symbology, but then again I can't really think of a clearer system.

 

Edit, some further thoughts:

 

1. The situation might be more confused if multiple wingmen had TWS or STT lock on the same target. Not sure if the symbology would indicate the first or last aircraft to achieve a lock.

 

2. That being said, this would in effect help the lead pilot of a flight to carry out a target sort: it would then be obvious when all the wingmen have STT lock on different targets and actually provides a clear guide for who's targeting what. So, unlike in most Western aircraft where the lead pilot has to mentally keep note of which wingman is targeting which target, in the Flanker the datalink actually shows all the pilots exactly who's doing what.

 

OK, I think that makes sense now. And I like it. Nice system.

 

Further edit: from the photos that Ironhand posted, it looks like the AI wingmen are actually automatically sorting targets: when aircraft 3 turns on its radar, aircraft 4 gets STT on Ironhand's "target 1" and wingman #3 gets STT on Ironhand's target 2. So eventually, Ironhand and his last wingman are both targeting "target number 1" and only wingman #3 is targeting Ironhand's "target number 2."


Edited by DarkFire

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..

But how do you differentiate between a wingman having a soft TWS lock on a target or an STT lock...

Depending on how many wingmen you involve, it's easy to tell a TWS "soft" lock from STT. He can only datalink what his radar "sees". With a TWS soft lock, his radar continues to see any other aircraft within parameters and they will be datalinked. When he drops into STT, just as happens in your cockpit, the sole focus of his radar is that single target and the other datalinked aircraft disappear from your HDD.

 

It's hard to tell what the number at the top actually signifies until we have control of the system. The number to the top right simply signifies which aircraft in the flight is sending the information. Beyond that it's guesswork on my part. The top right number moving to the top center position might simply mean he is accepting the assignment of attacking that aircraft. And the number to the left of the nose that he's targeting it. Or vise versa. Or not. I haven't spent enough time studying the datalink panel itself to know exactly what is possible.

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