Battleships Bismark.

[Para_Bellum]

Just run my test mission and the results looked good, got quite a few more destroyed B-17s now.

 

One thing though: is there any way to restrict the aircraft from taking evasive action? I've already set AI reaction to threat to "none". Anything else to do?

 

Oh, and thanks again for all your efforts, really amazing work.

[Shahdoh]

More destroyed B17s? That should not be right. B17s were pretty tough and a single fighter should not be able to take out more then a couple. add 1 maybe 2 for the gameplay aspect. Will need to test it more myself otherwise will stick to my own settings.

 

I did some research on the matter. Could not find anywhere of a single pilot claiming more then 1 B17 in a mission. Did it happen? maybe, but no definitive proof. Yes, other bombers have seen multiples destroyed by a single pilot, but they did not have the defensive capability or sheer toughness of the B17.

 

As far as getting them to hold in formation when attacked, the only way is as I have already described. Turn off their offensive/defensive capabilities and script in the bombing and defense.

May think it is unrealistic. To those that have flown my missions with it in place, feel it is a great solution. If you want a demonstration, will be glad to throw the mission up for anyone interested to see the effects in person. Just have to decide, which is more unrealistic, bombers breaking formation? Or not seeing tracers and bombs falling...

[crazyeddie]

Pretty sure it is this bit that gives you a 4ship

 

mapclasskey = "P0091000025",

attribute = {wsType_Air, wsType_Airplane, wsType_Fighter, WSTYPE_PLACEHOLDER ,"Battleplanes",},

Categories = {"{78EFB7A2-FD52-4b57-A6A6-3BF0E1D6555F}", "Interceptor",},

 

Intruders/Strategic Bombers (current B17G, B29 setup) are limited to 1 plane per group. Battleplanes are configured by DCS are 4 per group. It's possible to try fiddling with the B17 but it may stop bombing as a result. Experimentation required.

 

Yep, that's the baby. I can get them to fly in close formation, and if you put them in the right parking bays they will even take off in sequence, but after that they get all stroppy and start thinking they are fighter bombers.

 

Two B29's landing side by side, not a great idea is it, what a bloody mess that was !! :cry:

 

Interesting idea though, did not even bother to try bombing, they are going to work like fighters as Stonehouse thought because the hard coding tell them they are fighters, but I will play around with the idea when I have more time.

 

So, if you just want a large formation of B17/B29's you can use this, but dont expect them to act like bombers, they have delusions of amazing agility !!

[Esac_mirmidon]

Take a look at the JG7 Me-262 pilots.

 

They took down two B-17 by one pilot more than once.

[Shahdoh]

And that is the Me 262 that we do not have yet.... and STILL leaves it in line with the proposed damage model of a single pilot able to take down 1-3 B-17s.

[Para_Bellum]

More destroyed B17s? That should not be right. B17s were pretty tough and a single fighter should not be able to take out more then a couple. add 1 maybe 2 for the gameplay aspect. Will need to test it more myself otherwise will stick to my own settings.

 

I did some research on the matter. Could not find anywhere of a single pilot claiming more then 1 B17 in a mission. Did it happen? maybe, but no definitive proof. Yes, other bombers have seen multiples destroyed by a single pilot, but they did not have the defensive capability or sheer toughness of the B17.

 

As far as getting them to hold in formation when attacked, the only way is as I have already described. Turn off their offensive/defensive capabilities and script in the bombing and defense.

May think it is unrealistic. To those that have flown my missions with it in place, feel it is a great solution. If you want a demonstration, will be glad to throw the mission up for anyone interested to see the effects in person. Just have to decide, which is more unrealistic, bombers breaking formation? Or not seeing tracers and bombs falling...

 

Could you provide an example for scripting bombing/defense? As I've said, I've already set their threat reaction to none but they still leave their assigned flight path.

[Shahdoh]

Here ya go, put this in the Mission builder section a bit ago per request:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=168153

[Para_Bellum]

Thank you!

[slebedeff]

[Markindel]

Lebedeff you're right, it's my fault. The argument 114 is not correct.

[Jacks]

Reference the V1 mod, why use that model with the in game MLRS and tweak its lua files?

[Markindel]

Reference the V1 mod, why use that model with the in game MLRS and tweak its lua files?

 

Thanks for the idea Jacks.

I'll do the tests

[Gaanalma]

:)

[Stonehouse]

So is the feeling that they are still not tough enough? Tests I did had 2 109s attack 2 B17s, average results were a 109 KIA a B17 KIA a damaged B17 and a 109 out of ammo. You really want them harder than that?

 

It was flying 262's but as I mentioned before Walter Schuck was credited with 4 B17s in one mission as I understand it. There are apparently others.

 

The thing is though until someone does a full damage model for a B17 up to ED standards this mod will be an approximation at best. None of the aerodynamic FM related values have been filled in correctly nor has all the damage modelling of systems etc been done. IE it has the right shape and generally flies sort of like the speeds the real thing did but don't look to close at the FM performance because it will definitely be wrong. Ditto the damage modelling. Also remember that currently turrets are not modelled in DCS. So that means when a fighter attacks any of these mods out of arc turrets will still attack. eg a 109 right on the B17s six level should only be engaged by probably the tail, upper and ball turrets and the upper and ball will probably loose target as the 109 closes in. Waist gunners probably might get off the odd shot if the 109 drifts far enough to one side. That's the real thing. In the current mod every 50cal will shoot at the 109 regardless - that's the mod. So if it gets made too tough you will see people complaining next about the volume of fire.

 

Realistically we are looking at arriving at a level of toughness for the B17 that is ok from a playability point of view on an average basis and the realisation that compromises will be required because the modelling of a real B17 is just not there. If we can please consider it from this angle - is the current damage set up perceived as "tough" enough?

 

When answering this question please also set up a few B17s in a box and try attacking them yourself because it is not just the playability AIwise that has to be rated.

 

Thanks,

Stonehouse

 

Just run my test mission and the results looked good, got quite a few more destroyed B-17s now.

 

One thing though: is there any way to restrict the aircraft from taking evasive action? I've already set AI reaction to threat to "none". Anything else to do?

 

Oh, and thanks again for all your efforts, really amazing work.

 

More destroyed B17s? That should not be right. B17s were pretty tough and a single fighter should not be able to take out more then a couple. add 1 maybe 2 for the gameplay aspect. Will need to test it more myself otherwise will stick to my own settings.

 

I did some research on the matter. Could not find anywhere of a single pilot claiming more then 1 B17 in a mission. Did it happen? maybe, but no definitive proof. Yes, other bombers have seen multiples destroyed by a single pilot, but they did not have the defensive capability or sheer toughness of the B17......

[Shahdoh]

I need to do more testing, I was just surprized someone said they got MORE B17s down with new model, unless I misunderstood them.

[Stonehouse]

PS when you are doing your testing please look at the after mission debrief screen. If you select event type = HIT and then choose the B17 of interest from your targets drop box you will see the hits by weapon and also the location number of the hit on the B17. Presumably the last one or two hits are the killing blows. Also have a proper look at the calibre and location of hits. Location number legend can be found in damage.lua in DCS World\Scripts\Aircrafts\_Common - think about what happens if you take 3 or 4 30mm shells or whatever in the left nose or cockpit etc and then make a judgement over whether you think it could or could not result in the B17 going down. Also as I said remember it isn't just about what happened in real life because the mod is not replica of the real thing in performance or damage modelling or the way the guns can bear or are even used by the AI (I have given each gun 2 -3 times what was the real ammo supply due to the way the AI uses the weapon otherwise they would be out of ammo in a few passes from an enemy fighter) but more about giving us a reasonable facsimile of a B17 that allows WW2 scenarios to be built and enjoyed.

[Shahdoh]

Exactly, I also am looking for more of the feel of what is possible, not the actual numbers, but trying to keep it "close" to real numbers. Right now, the Lua I gave you, with those damage numbers "feels" right for damage absorbtion and I can balance my campaign around that. I do not use the bombers defenses, instead my own scripting, which is nowhere realistic, but gives the feel of bombers able to defend themselves, and when in formation, their defense is even stronger.

 

Also, I am balancing it versus real people, not AI fighters, and that also changes things.

[Stonehouse]

Ok but not everyone will use your formation and "defences" script so be careful you are not creating a special case. I also have run tests using squadron mates although not as often as I have run AI tests just due to convenience when making changes and testing at 11pm when most of them have hit the sack.

 

If you check the new lua quite a lot of the places exceed your damage values based on the last version I saw from you. I think for example your highest was wing in right location 36 at 23 points. That same location and the matching left position is 30 in my last lua. Similarly the fuselage locations are in places double your values.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Stonehouse

[Shahdoh]

Good, was there any places where you reduced the values? Being to lazy to compare, but since you worked the file.... :music_whistling:

[Stonehouse]

Only place I can really think of is some of the actual control surfaces like the ailerons - they were something like 6 or 8 and to me this was not right as they were like a third of something like a wing or a fuselage portion damage value so I cut them down to I think 3 or thereabouts. If a B17 goes down quickly using the latest lua I usually will find that it has taken several cannon hits in the nose/cabin/cockpit locations plus some general damage around the same areas, I feel this is reasonable as killing the flight crew and severe damage around the cockpit would usually from what I have read cause loss of the aircraft even if it was largely undamaged elsewhere. If this doesn't happen then I usually see the B17s fight on for a long time and often destroy or damage enemy fighters enough to escape. The gun positions also have a ridiculous amount of ammo compared to real life load outs because of the way the AI uses the guns. Currently each 50 cal has 5000 rounds. In reality I believe the tail gun for instance had about 650 rounds per gun so about 1300 in total. Nose guns had much less ammo, cheek guns for instance only usually had about 300 rounds per gun I believe. The mod plane is carrying around 50000 rounds (5000 x 10) of 50 cal so that the AI can fire for a seemingly reasonable time, trade off is I reduced the max fuel enough to allow the ammo weight. If I hadn't done this then the aircraft would defenceless in about a min.

 

PS winmerge is your friend. Free and very useful for comparing files.

[Shahdoh]

Cool, thanks, regarding those cockpit hits, have you been getting those from the rear? of so, that should not be possible either, though afraid the hit modeling might make it possible.

[Para_Bellum]

A bit more testing:

 

attacking a realistic 3 squadron, 32 ship combat box of B-17s with the latest build is tough, very tough, as long the the formations stays together. Attack from behind and you're almost certain to get shot down. I found that the only way I could get in more than 1-2 attacks was to attack the formation head on, which seems quite realistic.

 

If only we could get the bombers to stay in formation while firing back... I'll try Shahdoh's defense script later tonight.

[Shahdoh]

I just posted my method for setting up formations here:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2816174#post2816174

[Para_Bellum]

Much appreciated, thanks!

[Stonehouse]

Cockpit hits from the rear are very rare but you often get nose left or right/cabin left or right hits. I don't know for sure how this maps out onto the fuselage but I interpret it as meaning nose to under the cockpit on whatever side and the region above the wing root - all pretty sensitive areas on a B17.

 

Yes all from rear/rear quarter attacks - I assume at the time of firing there is sufficient offset to hit the side of the nose area even though the AI seems to be shooting at the rear of the plane. I do see tracers go past the tail and hit the nose. Not noticing them going for the engines and wings much mostly the fuselage - which I guess is consistent with a generic AI shooting at a modern jet aircraft as the fuselage is where most of the fragile stuff is these days.

 

I think to a large degree the damage modelling is what it is until ED or a 3rd party builds a bomber or other similar large WW2 aircraft and adds code to handle it.

 

Cool, thanks, regarding those cockpit hits, have you been getting those from the rear? of so, that should not be possible either, though afraid the hit modeling might make it possible.