Relative performance of the Mustang, the 109 and the 190

[Reflected]

In all sims I`ve flown I learned all about the relative performance of each aircraft so that I can use them effectively in combat.

 

I know nothing about the P51/109/190 though. How do they compare in terms of speed/ climb rate/ turn rate/ roll rate?

 

Thanks!

[WinterH]

Mustang : Faster in most altitudes than both, generally easiest to handle, roll rate improves with speed, climbs the worst out of 3 but dives the best. Turns generally better than Dora, Kurfüst though out turns Mustang in most speeds & altitudes. .50 cals are not as powerful as cannons but, they are easier to score consecutive hits on longer distances. Handles very good at high speeds. It has the best view out of canopy. Also by far the best air to ground platform of 3. Best gun sight with BOTH a fixed reference and a floating pipper.

 

Dora : Most balanced firepower of two 20mm cannons and 2 heavy machine guns, with an accurate pilot guns are good at any range. Climbs very good, Accelerates very good, less trim crazy than Kurfüst, very good roll rate across the speeds. Handles very good at high speeds. Does not like low speeds. Very good roll performance across the board. Top speed is not as high as Mustang in anywhere but low altitudes, still, it usually out accelerates it unless in a dive. Gunsight can either be a fixed cross or floating pipper, but not both. Good with vertical maneuvers, less so with horizontal turning. Last I've flown, wings practically were unbreakable.

 

Kurfüst : Easily outturns both others in low to mid speeds but at high speeds handling suffers. Worst roll rate among 3. Difficult to fly compared to others, always needs some attention. 30mm but low velocity gun does serious damage but is only good at very close range and has few ammo. Climbs like a rocket. Fastest in most altitues BUT, after about 500 km/h it becomes difficult to control, also it is difficult to keep it steady enough to get to high speeds, unlike other two. Accelerates pretty good. Worst view out of canopy. In a sense, most rewarding but also probably most difficult to get best out of.

[Reflected]

Thanks a lot for the detailed answer, just what I needed.

 

So against the Dora: Either keep the speed up, get in and out fast, or try to turn horizontally at low speeds. Do not try vertical scissors.

 

Against the 109: Fast in and out, or horizontal scissors. Preferably with the speed kept high up. Never try to outturn or outclimb him.

 

Is this more or less correct? What is your experience?

[Solty]

No. Because P51 is the slowest plane currently. Supposedly ED is going to give us.more powerful engine setting.

 

Turn against the Dora and B&Z the K4. Both of those German planes are late war limited versions that have superior speed

 

If you try to run from them, they will both catch you. Always take 40% of fuel for standard small missions to be sure that you will get that extra manoeuvrability.

 

You can outdive the K4 though, but remember, he will catch up after some time.

[BSS_Sniper]

I'm not sure where someone got that the 51 in here is faster than either German plane, but that surely isn't true. You're lucky if you can outdive either. You really shouldn't turn against the Dora if you can avoid it. Maybe you can if it's AI, not MP though. Just keep it fast and b & z unless you're flying with cover.

[KingPoiuy]

Always fly with cover. A good wingman is priceless.

[DblAAssassin]

I'm sorry: new to dogfighting. Could someone tell me what B&Z means? I couldn't find anything with a google search.

 

Thanks in advance.

[sobek]

Boom and zoom. It means entering the fight with a high energy advantage and trying to preserve the energy instead of entering into a knife fight.

[Captain Orso]

IE dive on the enemy and then use the dive speed to climb away before the target can get near you?

[msalama]

Yup.

[gavagai]

Fastest in most altitues BUT, after about 500 km/h it becomes difficult to control, also it is difficult to keep it steady enough to get to high speeds, unlike other two. Accelerates pretty good. Worst view out of canopy. In a sense, most rewarding but also probably most difficult to get best out of.

 

The 109 control heaviness sets in at a mere 400km/h. At 600km/h you're an unguided missile (a speed you can almost reach in level flight). If it's correct it really stretches the imagination to think that it was considered adequate control in a late '44 WW2 fighter.

 

Only the 190D-9 is a credible threat against the P-51D on a level playing field.

[Zimmerdylan]

:pilotfly:

I'm not sure where someone got that the 51 in here is faster than either German plane, but that surely isn't true. You're lucky if you can outdive either. You really shouldn't turn against the Dora if you can avoid it. Maybe you can if it's AI, not MP though. Just keep it fast and b & z unless you're flying with cover.

 

 

 

+1, it's performance isn't on par at all with either of the German planes. From everything I have researched, the German planes seemed to have an edge on the P51 under certain conditions, but they were not nearly as superior as they come off in DCS.

It is a hotly debated topic in the forums. My personal take is that if I am in a P51 and come up against a 109, I'll be a flaming ball hurling towards earth in short order. AI or internet, doesn't matter. If I encounter a 190, I have a better chance but still cannot out turn or run it.

If I'm in a German plane, I have little trouble dispatching the P51.

[fastfreddie]

:pilotfly:

 

 

 

+1, it's performance isn't on par at all with either of the German planes. From everything I have researched, the German planes seemed to have an edge on the P51 under certain conditions, but they were not nearly as superior as they come off in DCS.

It is a hotly debated topic in the forums. My personal take is that if I am in a P51 and come up against a 109, I'll be a flaming ball hurling towards earth in short order. AI or internet, doesn't matter. If I encounter a 190, I have a better chance but still cannot out turn or run it.

If I'm in a German plane, I have little trouble dispatching the P51.

 

Fuel shortages, poor pilot training, and the vast numbers of allied fighters would make any late war German plane look ineffective. The gap between the Mustang vs the Bf109/FW190 is not that large that a good Mustang pilot can't be effective. It does some things better than the Dora and other things better than the BF109. It has better high speed characteristics, roll rate, and dive speed than the 109. On par or better than the Dora in dive and turns but not as good of a roll rate. Dora has a slightly better climb rate but nothing that will get you out of immediate trouble. Mustang has a huge advantage over both German planes in visibility.

[Zimmerdylan]

Fuel shortages, poor pilot training, and the vast numbers of allied fighters would make any late war German plane look ineffective. The gap between the Mustang vs the Bf109/FW190 is not that large that a good Mustang pilot can't be effective. It does some things better than the Dora and other things better than the BF109. It has better high speed characteristics, roll rate, and dive speed than the 109. On par or better than the Dora in dive and turns but not as good of a roll rate. Dora has a slightly better climb rate but nothing that will get you out of immediate trouble. Mustang has a huge advantage over both German planes in visibility.

 

 

Exactly, you are making my point for me. ED seems to want to sell the P51 short for whatever reason. Go into ME, set up any mission (I have done this and posted the results so I know what will happen) where you pit any number of P51's against the equal number 109, or 190 without any human element at all. All AI. Give even better odds to the P51, more planes, whatever and the German planes will come out on top (usually with no casualties) 4 out of 5 times.

The P51 can barely climb to 17000 feet in DCS without major struggles (even the AI). And yes....I know, everyone says this is correct, but I don't believe that it was that non functional in altitudes between 14 and18000 ft. Makes no sense as most of the 109's were shot down at lower altitudes by P51's because the Germans were instructed to bring the fight down. If the real P51's performed that poorly at those altitudes, I truly believe we'd of lost that war.

I got so discouraged with the P51 that I don't bother using it unless I use it for target practice with the German planes. I use to loath flying the 109 but after learning about how it is vastly superior to the Mustang in DCS, I fly it exclusively.

Mind you, I am not bashing ED. If this is what they feel the planes should act like, fine by me. I have tried to have this debate with them for a long time. I have posted pilot testimonial, watched people post statistic after statistic, and watched pilot after pilot who flew the plane say things directly contrary to the DCS model. They are insistent that the ED way is the way the planes were developed. So it is a non issue for me, a difference of opinion. Honestly. I have no quarrel with flying the 109 and stomping the mustang into the dirt (and I do all of the time). I just don't like flying the Mustang because it feels more like a Baron58 (IMO) than a fighter. It frustrates me no end. And I have talked with so many others who don't fly it for the same reason.

And as I always say, this is only my opinion, formed on research that I have done and things I have seen. Everyone has their likes and dislikes, the P51 has become my dislike in DCS. There are plenty of great AC that I can play around with. I am not by any means complaining, just expressing my opinions about the plane.

Edited February 14, 2016 by Zimmerdylan

[Zimmerdylan]

The 109 control heaviness sets in at a mere 400km/h. At 600km/h you're an unguided missile (a speed you can almost reach in level flight). If it's correct it really stretches the imagination to think that it was considered adequate control in a late '44 WW2 fighter.

 

Only the 190D-9 is a credible threat against the P-51D on a level playing field.

 

 

Yeah...I get ya on that one. But somehow, I can manage to stay just under the crutial "manic loss of stick" speed. It seems to be an unforgiving plane to me, but it's much better than a plane that just won't perform under stress.

I would much rather operate on the edge of pushing limits of power than struggle to gain speed, altitude, or maneuverability as I constantly find myself doing in the Mustang.

It may just be (as I have said before) that some planes suit peoples flying styles or even personalities better than others.

[Solty]

:pilotfly:

 

 

 

+1, it's performance isn't on par at all with either of the German planes. From everything I have researched, the German planes seemed to have an edge on the P51 under certain conditions, but they were not nearly as superior as they come off in DCS.

It is a hotly debated topic in the forums. My personal take is that if I am in a P51 and come up against a 109, I'll be a flaming ball hurling towards earth in short order. AI or internet, doesn't matter. If I encounter a 190, I have a better chance but still cannot out turn or run it.

If I'm in a German plane, I have little trouble dispatching the P51.

That is because most Bf109's were not K4's and most Fw190's were not D9's, but G6 and G14 and Fw190A8 which would be way slower both, than the P-51D, even at the deck and the difference would be astonishing at altitude of 7000m.

 

And most certainly you can outturn the D9, just you have to burn your energy to do so. The Fw190D9 can pull a lead on you at high speed, so beware of that.

[Echo38]

In real life, many P-51Ds were running at a higher WEP rating (72" instead of the factory 67"), giving it a few hundred more horsepower. This makes a big difference, as more power means better turn, climb, speed, acceleration, etc. So, yes, the DCS portrayal isn't exactly an accurate picture of how P-51 vs. Me 109 combat usually went. Pilot disparity (later in the war, after most of the German experts had been killed) was indeed a huge factor, but the P-51D itself was, on average, better in reality than it is in the sim, and the average 109 was (as Solty pointed out) also a worse model than the K.

 

Which isn't to say that the airplanes are modelled wrong, mind you. We have a pretty damn accurate simulation of a factory-fresh P-51D. In reality, many P-51Ds did run at factory settings, too, so it isn't incorrect to model a factory-rated P-51D. It's just that, from a historical accuracy & competitive balance point of view, a factory-rated P-51D vs. an Me 109K was a poor choice. They did it for reasons of data availability, and that's understandable, but you see the downside.

 

You can have both aircraft simulated correctly, but still have an inaccurate picture of how the two compared, on average, because we've got two examples which approach opposite extremes: an example of a below-average P-51D, pitted against an above-average example of a contemporary 109. Except for the odd "lemon" or battle-worn one, you'd have a hard time finding a historical example of a P-51D that performed more poorly than this one (since it's using the lowest WEP setting ever rated for combat P-51Ds). And while you can find examples of a 109Ks that performed better than ours, ours is a lot closer to its "best" and farther from its "worst" than our P-51D.

 

To summarize: the problem is that, due to modelling data availability, a lower-end P-51D was chosen, but a higher-end Me 109. Neither one is necessarily modelled wrong (although there might be a bug or two around still, affecting performance; I don't know), but neither is the simulated scenario an accurate picture of how the two airplanes usually compared (even barring the pilot experience and combat altitude issues, which both compound the situation).

Edited February 14, 2016 by Echo38

[Reflected]

Echo, this is exactly what I've been thinking about. It's indeed a strange choice to release 1945 German planes on one side, then give us 1943-44 fighters to oppose them such as the Mustang or the Spit IX in the future.

[Kurfürst]

Echo, this is exactly what I've been thinking about. It's indeed a strange choice to release 1945 German planes on one side, then give us 1943-44 fighters to oppose them such as the Mustang or the Spit IX in the future.

 

It would be change if the arguement would be true, but it isn't. The Spit IX and P-51D was the most common Western Allied frontline fighters of the second half of 1944, and neither the K-4 or the D-9 were rare, by any standard.

 

You could argue though that they might as well gave us the Typhoon, P-47D, Fw 190A-8 or Bf 109G-14 or G-14/AS, but it wouldn't change much IMO. Especially that at these low altitudes with the G-14 you would be probably worser off than than with K...

 

Those fantasisies about trashing early 1943 G-6s with late 1944 P-51D (service introduction: June 1944) should really do a self- and reality check why they have problem with facing late 1944 D-9s and K-4 (service introduction: September/October 1944).

[Talisman_VR]

What we could really do with is the Hawker Tempest MkV. This would give the allied side of the map a second aircraft type (other than the SPit) that has cannon armament that would be a good timeline and technological match up and performance parity with the K-4 and Dora.

The great shame is that instead of the Tempest, we are getting the Typhoon, which is, again, an older and slower performing aircraft than the K-4 and Dora. It is such a shame that the aircraft sets are not joined up.

Never mind, the Me262 will be along in due course and still I expect, on current trend, we won't have the better performing P51D on the higher grade fuel or the Tempest Mk V; I would very much like to be wrong about that though.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[saburo_cz]

btw. DCS P-51D is like model from spring 1945 (late -20, -25 and -30) according to its equipment, no one Pony had this in cockpit in 1944,

IMHO "1945" K-4 and D9 pefectly match with this late Pony, all come from exactly same period, do not see here any problem

[Reflected]

OK, good to know, thanks for the info Kurfurst!

 

I don`t know much about Mustangs, I thought the D model was in service as of early 1944, but apparently not this variant.

 

Then the matchup seems fair and square.

 

Steering back on topic: so apparently the 109 and the 190 are much better dogfighters, and the Mustang cannot really show its advantages in a sim like this (ruggedness, long range, numerical superiority, etc...)

 

Are there any plans to throw bombers in the equation at some point?

[NineLine]

Are there any plans to throw bombers in the equation at some point?

 

We can only hope so.

 

An AI B-17 is planned, I gave a list of a few other I would like to see for both sides, but we will see what ED comes up with as far as AI units.

 

I also bug everyone I can about a flyable 2 engine bomber, and will continue to do so as long as I have the opportunity :)

[159th_Falcon]

I also bug everyone I can about a flyable 2 engine bomber, and will continue to do so as long as I have the opportunity :)

 

Yes Please;

[Solty]

It would be change if the arguement would be true, but it isn't. The Spit IX and P-51D was the most common Western Allied frontline fighters of the second half of 1944, and neither the K-4 or the D-9 were rare, by any standard.

 

You could argue though that they might as well gave us the Typhoon, P-47D, Fw 190A-8 or Bf 109G-14 or G-14/AS, but it wouldn't change much IMO. Especially that at these low altitudes with the G-14 you would be probably worser off than than with K...

 

Those fantasisies about trashing early 1943 G-6s with late 1944 P-51D (service introduction: June 1944) should really do a self- and reality check why they have problem with facing late 1944 D-9s and K-4 (service introduction: September/October 1944).

 

 

 

We have discussed it very much already, and by 1944 standards the K4 which was a quite rare sight indeed, especially with G14 beeing the most produced variant for that stage of the war together with other modified G's like G6, G8 and G10. Especially like you said against those most common allied planes.

 

A bit more detail:

 

 

 

Remember that WW2 project for DCS revolves around whole 1944 period. Therfore we will get Spit IXc which is not exactly late 1944 ( Spit LFIX was produced since second part of 1943), another plane and we will get P-47D (dunno which version realy) and P-47D was in service before 1944 and bubble cannopy P-47D25 was from May 1944. Then we get the P-51D from June 1944. All of those planes were made in thousands. How many K4's were operational during 1944?

Produced:

 

G14 and its varaints (July-November 44): 3910

K4 (September-November): 531

G6 was the most and longest produced variant which culminated in more than 9000 units.

190D9 (up to November 44): 366

 

 

Cause German's were not switching airplanes, if you were given a new type, that was only due to replacement for a destroyed one at this stage of the war or because you were "trained" on it.

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/articles/pilots/stigler/stigler_p3.htm

 

 

K4 was just another type in many many types that served in the LW. And it was not even close to beeing produced in numbers like the late war G variants. Not in 1944! In 1945, yes many more were produced and focus switched to those K4 and D9 variants.

 

What I hope is that the relative performance of the P-51D will get improved, as talisman said, the new 44-1 and 72'hg or 75'hg power setting would make things equal. You see the idea is that you take two planes that have distinct strenghts. That way plane's feel unique.

 

With K4 against current 67'hg P-51D, the 51 pilot has to be way better to win or have a numerical advantage or the K4 driver has to make a very grave mistake. Either way currently the K4 has nearly every advantage the fighter plane needs to be successful.