Jump to content

Operation "Blue Flag" - 24/7 PvP Campaign - ROUND 5


gregzagk

Recommended Posts

Theres two blades on the sword. One side is that DCS is not very good at handling packet loss, and packet loss usually increases with the ping. High ping itself is not the major problem.

 

Now this make sense..

 

So High ping is not a valid measure for this, you can even have 40 ms ping but have a lots of packet loss.... and I saw this in many people that actually creates the WARP that people attribute to ping.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 1k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

;2690207']I dont think its related to aircraft spawns. I've never had this problem in the 104th server and we host 61 clients also.

 

I also want to point out this warping in the last hour happens with 60 people in the server or 30 people in the server, so I would be very surprised if the number of spawns has anything to do with it.

 

I meant scripts respawing. Try this and you will remember me. Nothing to do with the speed etc as mentioned above.

 

At the other hand remove scripting and you won't have blue flag.

 

Greg

"ARGO" DCS UH-1H DLC SP Campaign

373vFS DCS World squadron (Greece) - www.buddyspike.net

"ARGO 2.0 Project Phoenix" UH-1H DLC Campaign - WIP

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@NaCH, on the Fuel side, yes squadrons need to bring in fuel, but still losing 10 aircraft for zero effect is a major and significant fuel run. its simply a compensation till better stability is achieved. one has nothing to do with the other.

 

Agree, but let's keep the server crashing out of the equation.. is something that is not intended and BlueFlag guys are looking into fix it.

 

 

As deadbeef said its packet loss, along with server location. put in the most simply way. each action is a cycle. so for every input u put you send out data. the data goes to the server, then the server sends the data to every one else.

 

If lets say i send out data at 200ms. and some one at 100 and some one at 600, while the server cycle data at 300, then 1 pilot wont be sending data in 1 cycle, so you get a warp. the thing is depending on the net code, that pilot will send old data after the cycle so the server will try and send old data as well. so you get all the other plays warp as well. and it gets worse and worse every cycle. this is without the "full" packet loss.

 

 

I understand IT network very well but I can't pretend to know ED Network code.

 

Logically ping does not affect the server it affects the client.

What affect the server and everyone is "DATA LOSS" or packet loss or not enough bandwidth to handle the connections. THIS what cause warping.

 

PING creates latency that means in your screen you moved away but still the missile hit you because on the server side did not received your command.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I meant scripts respawing.

 

 

 

Please consider changing it to 2 hours mission time than 3 hours then.

 

I know this sucks and doesn't give a lot of time for things to happen, but the last hour of the mission is borderline useless for air to air combat.

 

Every client that gets launched on starts warping all over the sky..... We are just wasting fuel, missiles and lives by getting into harms way in the last hour of the mission!

 

All your missiles will miss the person you are shooting at and then he turns round and kills you.

 

Not great at all!

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]



104th Phoenix Wing Commander / Total Poser / Elitist / Hero / Chad

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is not exactly true as the pings of most of the players are quite good comparing to other servers.

Believe me it's in a quite good data center... :) Ping is the last thing sometimes that can bring lag during a session. Will have to solve other issues first.

 

The lives are set to 4 to include the risk of DCS crashes. Otherwise they would be less as we want to bring the feeling of valuable aircraft.

 

Server is back after an important maintenance in the machine.

 

Greg

 

That's not how it works, you can have 100 players with zero ping but if you have 1 player with 600 ping then every one has 600 ping "in function" or how the game works.

 

If the lag was client based then I will lag, or the player with high ping will lag, I will see my self rubber banding. AKA it will hurt me, But at the moment that never happens. At the moment "like the issue in BF3 for example" the player with high ping will warp around gaining major advantage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

;2690232']Please consider changing it to 2 hours mission time than 3 hours then.

 

I know this sucks and doesn't give a lot of time for things to happen, but the last hour of the mission is borderline useless for air to air combat.

 

Every client that gets launched on starts warping all over the sky..... We are just wasting fuel, missiles and lives by getting into harms way in the last hour of the mission!

 

All your missiles will miss the person you are shooting at and then he turns round and kills you.

 

Not great at all!

 

I hear you Maverick and i agree wholeheartedly. But I also agree with greg, no scripting = no blueflag.

The only one who can help is in fact c0ff when he finally finishes the new netcode and dedicated server (c0ff please take as much time as you need, but do it as fast as possible ;) I understand how hard the task is you're assigned to).

 

Seriously, the scripting and respawning and whatever blueflag does in terms of game-development is not overly complicated and must not be the reason that causes lag, because if it was, we would be doomed to dogfight from A to B like on most other servers, which is not a very attractive option in my opinion. The scripting engine has soo many goodies left for us that we haven't even scratched, and I'm really looking forward to help creating interesting scripted missions that add more dynamics to flying DCS. In 2-3 years this is going to be awesome! Unfortunately right now its quite a pita.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great to learn that I am not only fighting very skilled eagle drivers but also ED's priority for MP/dedicated svr - Or the lack of it. :( I need a whiskey and some brolove to accept this hard fact.

 

EDIT: Vodka.. I mean vodka.. REDFOR only enjoy Vodka

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's not how it works, you can have 100 players with zero ping but if you have 1 player with 600 ping then every one has 600 ping "in function" or how the game works.

 

If the lag was client based then I will lag, or the player with high ping will lag, I will see my self rubber banding. AKA it will hurt me, But at the moment that never happens. At the moment "like the issue in BF3 for example" the player with high ping will warp around gaining major advantage.

 

Sorry but I feel you miss what is discussed here. Of course ping can cause issues that's why I say "sometimes". But it's rare cause we monitor pings and have a ping limiter function ready to use.

 

The lag we have at some points is not from connections. It's caused by the processing (scripts etc)

 

DCS lags when you have ground units moving, unoptimised scripts, great number of groups respawned etc even if there is one player inside the server living next to the machine.

 

So the issue that happens after the 2 hours Is due to the workload of the last sessions. Both sides try to complete more stuff.

We optimise it in the background though.

 

Greg

"ARGO" DCS UH-1H DLC SP Campaign

373vFS DCS World squadron (Greece) - www.buddyspike.net

"ARGO 2.0 Project Phoenix" UH-1H DLC Campaign - WIP

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry but I feel you miss what is discussed here. Of course ping can cause issues that's why I say "sometimes". But it's rare cause we monitor pings and have a ping limiter function ready to use.

 

The lag we have at some points is not from connections. It's caused by the processing (scripts etc)

 

DCS lags when you have ground units moving, unoptimised scripts, great number of groups respawned etc even if there is one player inside the server living next to the machine.

 

So the issue that happens after the 2 hours Is due to the workload of the last sessions. Both sides try to complete more stuff.

We optimise it in the background though.

 

Greg

 

while I know scripts can be an issue, "i run arma servers for 8 years", Ping is also an issue, when its over 300-350. i saw people warping and doing the same thing even when the server just started.

 

Question, is it possible to do a test for this? move the server to a different host location on a global internet line, Frankfurt Germany or London UK both are on the global network. "AKA they connect directly to NA,EU and Asia. and give it a test? and do a test with ping limitations and see how it runs.?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's keep in mind that this not Pac-Man, DCS is complicated, it's also very complicated adding dynamic scripts and having to adjust to frequent updates that changes many aspects of programming all that trying to balance things with 60 people online, it takes time and no you can't make it stable over night but these guys are doing an awesome job at bringing this new DCS experience which has unleashed the true nature of DCS!! Team work with coordinated operations, remember when they first switch the A-A missiles to AFM everything when to hell and you couldn't shoot a C-130 with an Aim-120 everyone on the forums was like " bring back the old model" now we have a better missile model than ever because they took the time and integrated it properly the same goes for blue flag and that is where greg and the guys are aiming for I'm sure

 

Great job guys I enjoy it very much :)

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Simflyin' since 1985 :smartass:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Am sure i can and or i can find some one willing to host for testing. :)

 

We have a 2nd server that on some occasions runs Blue Flag, It is based in a Data Center in Germany and we had same or even worse results at times.

 

Having experience from hosting other Sims/Games does not mean you know how it works in DCS or on any other game for that matter, Each is different and each has it's own issues in the net code.

From our experience in DCS, ping is not the main issue for lag, we have been running events for over 3 years now in DCS, it can be a factor in extreme cases but usually it does not do the effect that everyone believes it does.

 

Until you have other data that spans over a few years of running DCS events for around 60 players, I think I'll stick to what we have accumulated over the years :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

it can be a factor in extreme cases but usually it does not do the effect that everyone believes it does.

 

 

 

Here is one extreme case....

 

 

Please reconsider a server ping limit good sir, its becoming unflyable, S!

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]



104th Phoenix Wing Commander / Total Poser / Elitist / Hero / Chad

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hehe, funny vid :)

 

When I say extreme cases, I mean with very large pings that are caused when someones connection is completely unstable or he is using his bandwidth to do other things like download/upload etc.. It could very well be the case here with Cancri_HUN.

 

There is no direct proof this was caused due to ping, it's very well possible that it was due to server net issue, DCS net code, server resources and numerous other things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

xcom, no harm is testing out upper ping limit for a while. I am sure you know more about DCS, but nearly every game ever made due to simple computing has a maximum upper limit to ping, and i am sure i never seen any thing that can take over 300 without issues.

 

Best of luck to fixing the issues, and just trying to offer other testing options. also amazing mission truly how DCS meant to be played and how ED needs to support Mplay. only shame is the lag right now so ill stick to ground attack.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mental note. The next time Redfor complains about team balance, I am to show them this.

 

Ae2wT82.png

 

Looks like I'll be busy helping Bluefor retake some bases when I get home tonight! :thumbup:

 

 

Sucks for anyone having to play against those odds... especially if they have to face them consistently. That's the problem I'm running into. I understand constant team balance isn't possible... but when you are forced to play against 4:1 3:1 odds when you are able to get on the server it gradually drags you down to the point where you just play something else...

 

 

I don't have an answer to fix this or rather mitigate it some... but odds like that aren't "sustainable", people will be driven away.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hehe, funny vid :)

 

When I say extreme cases, I mean with very large pings that are caused when someones connection is completely unstable or he is using his bandwidth to do other things like download/upload etc.. It could very well be the case here with Cancri_HUN.

 

 

A server ping limit would stop this from happening! One of the major issues with Blue Flag is there are no admins around for the majority of the day to deal with clients with bad connections.

 

A server ping limit doesn't require admins to monitor connections.

 

 

We spoke about this before and the system you told me about is not functional as you mentioned.

 

Something needs to be done mate, I've tried not to be too critical because I love what you have done here and think the event is great... but this attitude of 'hey it doesnt matter what your ping is come along' is damaging the campaign.

 

I agree 100% with you that ping is not the be all and end all and is not the cause of all the problems.

 

However having a ping limit will make the server more stable... you have years of DCS data and so do I... I will not be moved on this position....

 

Clients with high pings as a result of location OR poor connection cause DCS to start warping. I will gladly (because I want to help you not troll you) go through all that we talked about regarding the relationship between client connection quality and DCS CPU usage again to reiterate my point!

 

 

What most people do not understand as I mentioned to you on Teamspeak is that the PING shown in DCS is not accurate!

It is an average ping taken over a time frame.... this can be very misleading... here is why....

 

This is a screen shot of the 104th server Host machine with the client IPs censored.

 

You can see the client ECV-57 ARIEL is connected to DCS with a ping of 230 (in game)... his actual ping as you can see in real time is 271

 

cMg0Sbw.png

 

Now a few seconds later the same client ....

 

fPB9cnP.png

 

His Ping still shows 230 in DCS but his real time ping is 263 this time.

 

 

When a client shows in the list with a ping of over 350 who is geographically not 350ms+ away from the server it is because his real time ping is jumping around well over 350 and 350 is the average ping.

 

This clients connection could be spiking to anything from 400 to 2000 but if it comes back down fast enough the average will never be higher than around 400.

This presents major problems for DCS if left unchecked and starts to overload the CPU.

 

 

When the host machine CPU usage gets above 12-13% it will cause DCS to start warping, every client will see this warping.

 

I see this on the 104th as the server admin all the time. The following will happen....

 

 

Our Server has 60 clients in it, all pings are below 300 and no live ping is spiking above 350. All clients pings are being monitored using the Performance Manager.

 

CPU usage on host machine = 9% with 60 clients connected.

 

Then ... one client with an unstable connection joins.

 

I watch his ping jump from 280 to 700 back to 280 then back to 800 and so on and so on. I monitor his connection using the Performance Manager Network Connections not DCS.

 

Once the client takes off and starts moving around the CPU % starts to creep up from 9% towards 13%.

 

If I leave this client in the server the CPU % will continue to build slowly until it crashes the server.

 

If I ban / kick this client from the server the Host machine CPU gradually recovers back to 9% and the warping stops.

 

 

 

You are correct about Ping not being everything..... Some clients who have high pings because they live far from the server but have very good connections do not cause problems. These clients live pings will jump around from eg.. 300 to 330... this is fine!

 

The problem is from clients who s connections are so bad that the live ping is jumping up and down by factors of 100s at a time!

 

 

So while a server ping limit will not fix all the server issues, it will make it more stable and reliable.

 

Its no secret that the DCS Net Code struggles with this volume of traffic, event organisers should strike to make it as easy as possible for the net code to handle the traffic.

 

Having people connected to server with pings of over 400 routed through VPNs is not good for the netcode.

  • Like 2

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]



104th Phoenix Wing Commander / Total Poser / Elitist / Hero / Chad

Link to comment
Share on other sites

;2690510']A server ping limit would stop this from happening! One of the major issues with Blue Flag is there are no admins around for the majority of the day to deal with clients with bad connections.

 

I agree with Maverick on this, his solution sounds very plausible and seems to work (the 104th server indeed does not have this kind of warping problems). I would like to strongly encourage you to at least give this technique a try!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's not how it works, you can have 100 players with zero ping but if you have 1 player with 600 ping then every one has 600 ping "in function" or how the game works.

.

 

You have any valid metrics or explanation from ED that backs your statement above?

 

Again I have no knowledge on ED network code but what you state from network perspective it does not sound right.

Actually based on your stated above everyone who has a lower ping should see things in "slow motion", and I mean everything even moving from point a to b.

 

 

PD: I don't want to start a flame war I Want to understand how it works


Edited by NaCH
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...