bkthunder Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 Can someone explain why the ailerons don't move at all with ail. booster off? My understanding is that the booster is, well, a booster and control should still be possible (albeit difficult) without it. Windows 10 - Intel i7 7700K 4.2 Ghz (no OC) - Asus Strix GTX 1080 8Gb - 16GB DDR4 (3000 MHz) - SSD 500GB + WD Black FZEX 1TB 6Gb/s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pappavis Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 U need to enable it, its a toggle switch just behind the flare dispenser, on the backside of the throttle. met vriendelijke groet, Михель "умный, спортсмен, комсомолетс" [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] [TABLE]SPECS: i9-9900K 32gigs RAM, Geforce 2070RTX, Creative XFi Fata1ity, TIR5, Valve Index & HP Reverb, HOTAS Warthog, Logitech G933 Headset, 10Tb storage.[/TABLE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiGon Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 U need to enable it, its a toggle switch just behind the flare dispenser, on the backside of the throttle. That's not what he asked. Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildBillKelsoe Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 RALT+H enables aileron boosters. I think its a hydraulic thing but I am mostly wrong.. My guess it could be insufficient aileron authority at high speeds. AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golo Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 Can someone explain why the ailerons don't move at all with ail. booster off? My understanding is that the booster is, well, a booster and control should still be possible (albeit difficult) without it. Ailerons not moving at all with boosters off is a bug for sure. According to technical documentation for Samolet 75b that I have (Section 4 - Controling the aircraft) the deflection with boosters on should be 20°+-1° and with boosters off 20°-2°. The max. force on the stick with boosters off at speeds M=0,88-0,9 (950-1000km/h) should be no more than 10kg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildBillKelsoe Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 RALT+H enables aileron boosters. I think its a hydraulic thing but I am mostly wrong.. My guess it could be insufficient aileron authority at high speeds. AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt_Haddock Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 This caught me by surprise yesterday. Took off an realised I couldn't bank. Luckily the rudder has plenty of side-effect roll so I managed to go into level flight to look for the switch. Looks like a bug to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconSarnie Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 This caught me by surprise yesterday. Took off an realised I couldn't bank. Luckily the rudder has plenty of side-effect roll so I managed to go into level flight to look for the switch. Looks like a bug to me. Not a bug, a disclosed change, was stated in last patch note "change in aileron booster switch logic" And lo, Reverend Vegas did say "Take forth unto the infidel the mighty GAU 8 and expend its holy 30MM so that freedom will be brung upon them who knoweth not the joys of BBBBBBBRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRTTTTTTTTTT" "Amen" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golo Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 Not a bug, a disclosed change, was stated in last patch note "change in aileron booster switch logic" Yes it is a bug, its function is implemented incorrectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilWillis Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 Yes it is a bug, its function is implemented incorrectly. Where do you get this information from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoflSeal Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 (edited) Where do you get this information from? Can you read? He wrote it 5 posts above. Though I would be interested in a screenshot of relevant page, since I can't find it in what I think is relevant document https://www.dropbox.com/sh/eyh14uxc89acs4j/AADFrtiutzoX6Qnu0-WkCCDka/MiG-21bis%20Manual.pdf?dl=0 Edited March 9, 2016 by RoflSeal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golo Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 (edited) Will do, in a bit. Edited March 9, 2016 by Golo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
some1 Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 (edited) The MiG-21 emergency checklist says, that in case the boosters fail, you turn off the switch and continue flying. The instruction allows to fly straight in this condition with speeds lower than 1000 km/h or 1.4Ma, and make turns with speed less than 600 km/h. It warns that the forces on the control stick will be considerably higher. Seriously, guys, a little imagination. What would be a purpose of a switch that completely kills aileron control :doh: http://www.muzeumlotnictwa.pl/index.php/digitalizacja/katalog/2313 Edited March 9, 2016 by some1 Hardware: VPForce Rhino, FSSB R3 Ultra, Virpil T-50CM, Hotas Warthog, Winwing F15EX, Slaw Rudder, GVL224 Trio Throttle, Thrustmaster MFDs, Saitek Trim wheel, Trackir 5, Quest Pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golo Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 I agree, having no control of the aircraft ailerons if boosters fail? Sorry but no engineer would design it like that, EVER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hadwell Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 (edited) yeah, just the word "booster" implies they "boost" the ailerons, not directly control them. and actually aircraft designers have and still do design aircraft with no redundancies, a japanese 747 failed and crashed into a mountain because of such an issue, loss of hydrolic pressure in the tail due to losing the vertical stabilizer, all the hydrolic lines cut.... around 500 people died... a redundancy would be electrically controlled or actual mechanical linkages, not just hydrolics, even though there are redundant hydrolic systems so if any three fails there's a fourth. Edited March 9, 2016 by Hadwell My youtube channel Remember: the fun is in the fight, not the kill, so say NO! to the AIM-120. System specs:ROG Maximus XI Hero, Intel I9 9900K, 32GB 3200MHz ram, EVGA 1080ti FTW3, Samsung 970 EVO 1TB NVME, 27" Samsung SA350 1080p, 27" BenQ GW2765HT 1440p, ASUS ROG PG278Q 1440p G-SYNC Controls: Saitekt rudder pedals,Virpil MongoosT50 throttle, warBRD base, CM2 stick, TrackIR 5+pro clip, WMR VR headset. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golo Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 Japan Airlines Flight 123? That was due to incompetent maintenance and paperwork not by design failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hadwell Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 (edited) Japan Airlines Flight 123? That was due to incompetent maintenance and paperwork not by design failure. yeah and if your aileron boosters fail in the mig-21, it'll be because of improper maintenance, or bullet holes... the mig-21 has physical mechanical linkages to the ailerons, I can't see any reason why having the boosters off would stop you from controlling the ailerons... Edited March 9, 2016 by Hadwell My youtube channel Remember: the fun is in the fight, not the kill, so say NO! to the AIM-120. System specs:ROG Maximus XI Hero, Intel I9 9900K, 32GB 3200MHz ram, EVGA 1080ti FTW3, Samsung 970 EVO 1TB NVME, 27" Samsung SA350 1080p, 27" BenQ GW2765HT 1440p, ASUS ROG PG278Q 1440p G-SYNC Controls: Saitekt rudder pedals,Virpil MongoosT50 throttle, warBRD base, CM2 stick, TrackIR 5+pro clip, WMR VR headset. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
some1 Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 and actually aircraft designers have and still do design aircraft with no redundancies, a japanese 747 failed and crashed into a mountain because of such an issue, loss of hydrolic pressure in the tail due to losing the vertical stabilizer, all the hydrolic lines cut.... around 500 people died... a redundancy would be electrically controlled or actual mechanical linkages, not just hydrolics, even though there are redundant hydrolic systems so if any three fails there's a fourth. That's a fallacy. No redundancy would save you in case of catastrophic failure like this, there is a high chance that cables to power and control your electric engines would be severed as easily as hydraulic lines. And mechanical controls would jam, like on a similar DC-10 disasters. Besides, electric engines that were light and powerful enough for this application were not really available in the '70s. Anyway, the hydraulic boosters on the MiG-21 and similar aircraft are not there for redundancy, just like the power steering in your car is not a redundancy backup for the control column. Hardware: VPForce Rhino, FSSB R3 Ultra, Virpil T-50CM, Hotas Warthog, Winwing F15EX, Slaw Rudder, GVL224 Trio Throttle, Thrustmaster MFDs, Saitek Trim wheel, Trackir 5, Quest Pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BravoYankee4 Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 (edited) If everyone had a force feedback joystick this would be much easier to simulate properly I assume... Edited March 11, 2016 by BravoYankee4 Spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilWillis Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Can you read? He wrote it 5 posts above. Though I would be interested in a screenshot of relevant page, since I can't find it in what I think is relevant document https://www.dropbox.com/sh/eyh14uxc89acs4j/AADFrtiutzoX6Qnu0-WkCCDka/MiG-21bis%20Manual.pdf?dl=0 I can read, I was just asking how you know it is a bug. Have leatherneck said so? Or are you just making assumptions based on what you have heard here? A bug implies it is not working in accordance with the designers wishes. How do you know it isn't a deliberate decision? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolek Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 http://www.muzeumlotnictwa.pl/index.php/digitalizacja/katalog/2313 Is there a PDF version of this Polish manual? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
some1 Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Don't think so. These are scans made by Polish Aviation Museum which they kindly put on the internet. I can read, I was just asking how you know it is a bug. Have leatherneck said so? Or are you just making assumptions based on what you have heard here? A bug implies it is not working in accordance with the designers wishes. How do you know it isn't a deliberate decision? You must be a lawyer.... Hardware: VPForce Rhino, FSSB R3 Ultra, Virpil T-50CM, Hotas Warthog, Winwing F15EX, Slaw Rudder, GVL224 Trio Throttle, Thrustmaster MFDs, Saitek Trim wheel, Trackir 5, Quest Pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrei Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 A bug implies it is not working in accordance with the designers wishes. How do you know it isn't a deliberate decision? Quoting LNS site: "The DCS: MiG-21 has been developed from the ground up with an unwavering focus on impeccable accuracy, realism and attention to detail. With full simulation of the aircraft’s systems and avionics..." It is quite clear that the current implementation of aileron booster logic is incorrect. It can be corrected by enabling aileron control when the switch is in OFF position, but with greatly reduced authority. Shouldn't be a terribly hard work to do assuming the control system itself is actually modeled accurately. Given that LNS is marketing "full simulation of aircraft systems" I do find that this is indeed a bug. AMD R7 5800X3D | Aorus B550 Pro | 32GB DDR4-3600 | RTX 4080 | VKB MGC Pro Gunfighter Mk III + Thustmaster TWCS + VKB T-Rudder Mk4 | HP Reverb G2 FC3 | A-10C II | Ка-50 | P-51 | UH-1 | Ми-8 | F-86F | МиГ-21 | FW-190 | МиГ-15 | Л-39 | Bf 109 | M-2000C | F-5 | Spitfire | AJS-37 | AV-8B | F/A-18C | Як-52 | F-14 | F-16 | Ми-24 | AH-64 NTTR | Normandy | Gulf | Syria | Supercarrier | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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