A-6 "Intruder" by Razbam

[King_Hrothgar]

I'll be honest, I think Razbam should do an A-7 or A-6, but not both. I realise they have slightly different roles, but ultimately they are both US Naval Ground Attack aircraft of similar vintage. If I had to choose, I'd go with the A6 because it's a more capable machine (and the A7 looks like a flying breeze block). I also think that once Razbam have got the F-15E up to a usable point then modifying the code for a plethora of other twin seat attack aircraft should be much, much easier (I'm thinking Buccaneer, Tornado, F-111, Su-24, A-6, F-4 etc).

 

Total guessing here on my part, but I would imagine that the Mirage, Harrier and F-15 will use common code for most of the systems (hydraulics, electrics, flight controls etc) that is simply interchanged between aircraft and modified to produce the individual characteristics required. That could be how they are planning two modules per year in future?

 

I thought about the same thing, but the A-6E and A-7E were frequently tasked with different missions given their respective strengths and weaknesses. The A-6E generally performed precision strike (LGBs, Skippers, Harpoons) and night strike. While A-7Es were more day strike, SEAD (with HARMS/CBUs), some precision strike with Walleyes, and conventional strike with unguided munitions.

 

Another thing though, in some ways it nice to have modules which are very different from each other, but that opens up logistical challenges as well. Leatherneck is already developing a new theater for the F-14:

 

With the F-14 and A-7E on the way, it makes sense to flush out the other combat members of the airwing - all the infrastructure for an excellent environment (map, carrier ops, AI) and experience are already in place. Plus, both A-6Es and A-7Es went into real combat, attacked real targets, and sunk ships in the Strait of Hormuz, so both the A-6 and A-7 will have two combat theaters in place before they even arrive.

 

If Razbam then jumps to the F-105, then they (or someone) needs to make a new map and such to properly place and employ it. That's a lot more work.

 

I think that clustering modules that work well together make the most sense at the moment. I'd love an A-6E, one of my favorite aircraft (with the F-14, A-7E, F-15E, and Harrier - wow...Razbam seems to be reading my mind ;)).

 

-Nick

 

Tombeckett, I agree it makes sense to recycle a lot of the coding. There really isn't much of a difference between a Mirage 2k, an AV-8B and a B-52 as far as the in game electric system is concerned. If the base code is written as a template rather than for a specific plane, it should be fairly easy to apply it to just about any aircraft relatively quickly. The LNS guys said they spent about a year after the MiG-21 setting up precisely that kind of system. RAZBAM is an experienced FSX/P3D and full time developer I think, so I'd be surprised if they didn't do that from the very start.

 

In regards to A-6 vs A-7, I agree with both of you to an extent. DCS is a combat flight sim and as such, every aircraft needs to have a reasonable set of playable and non-playable units relevant to it. This is why I keep pushing for DCS to focus on 1970 to the early 1990's. That's where all the AI stuff is currently, so it makes sense to expand on that with new player and AI units for a fuller experience. As we go on, additional AI assets should be added to both ends of that core period. Both the A-6E and A-7E fit right smack in the middle of that focus and they have seen extensive combat. Additionally, both aircraft offer something truly new to DCS. As such, both aircraft would make excellent additions but, they both do the same thing for the same team. And that's where I agree with Tom.

 

I think both aircraft should be added, but I think there are higher priority aircraft before we get the second. Below is an incomplete list of aircraft that I consider more important than having both the A-6 and A-7 (in no particular order):

 

Fixed wing:

1) F-111

2) Su-24

3) Su-17/20/22

4) MiG-23

5) MiG-25

6) MiG-27 (mutually exclusive with Su-17/20/22 for same reason as A-6 and A-7)

7) SEPECAT Jaguar

8 ) Tornado

9) J-8

10) Q-5

11) F-4E

 

Rotary wing:

1) Mi-24

2) AH-1

3) AH-64 (mutually exclusive with AH-1)

4) Mi-2

5) UH-60

6) CH-53

7) CH-47 (mutually exclusive with CH-53)

8 ) Ka-27

 

I excluded officially confirmed projects from the list as well as aircraft that offer similar capabilities for the same nation/alliance (the F-16 was cut for this reason due to the F-18 ). Anyways, as you can see, that's kind of a long list of stuff I think would add more to the game than having both the A-6 and A-7. One of them should certainly be there, and I consider whichever one is chosen to be a medium-high priority aircraft. But whichever comes second, should also be second to a lot of other things that add more to the game as a whole.

[mattebubben]

I'll be honest, I think Razbam should do an A-7 or A-6, but not both. I realise they have slightly different roles, but ultimately they are both US Naval Ground Attack aircraft of similar vintage. If I had to choose, I'd go with the A6 because it's a more capable machine (and the A7 looks like a flying breeze block).

 

Well if they had to pick between the A-7 and A-6 that would most likely mean dropping the A-6 since the A-7 is already very far along.

 

And also the A-7 was not only used by the US navy.

 

It was also Used by the airforce in large numbers aswell as the Air National Guard for a long time.

 

And the A-7 was also exported to a a few nations while the A-6 was only used by the US Navy / Marine Corps.

 

And they were Different Type of aircraft.

 

The A-6 was Larger Heavier and more expensive.

 

And it was a Twin engine Two-seater.

 

While the A-7 was cheaper smaller and single engine / single seat.

 

And Id say the A-7 also had advantages in many areas.

 

For example It had more weapon pylons with 6 wing pylons aswell as 2 chin pylons for Aim-9s.

 

While the A-6 had 4 wing pylons aswell as 1 centerline.

 

And it also had a Internal gun that the A-6 Lacked.

 

So saying the A-6 is more capable then the A-7 is very much wrong.

 

For some missions it had an advantage over the A-7 but for other missions the A-7 had the advantage over the A-6.

 

Which is the exact reason why they kept both in service and production.

 

And i see no reason why both could or should not be made.

 

Its kinda like saying there is no need for a F-16c once we have the F-15E since ultimately they are both US Air force Multi-role aircraft of similar vintage.

Edited March 13, 2016 by mattebubben

[Eihort]

"Wake up and stop dreaming. We're at the IP."

"Yeah yeah."

[WinterH]

Frankly, I want them both, and besides the "want" part, I also see them to offer different enough things. I am a little bit more eager for A-7, but A-6E TRAM have also been something I am very interested in for a long time. So hopefully, I'll get to enjoy both in DCS. Same goes with MiG-27 & Su-17.

 

However, I also agree that before a similar duo saturate a class of aircraft in DCS, I'd rather see other vacancies filled on roster.

 

I have wishlist of Russian aircraft more or less exactly same as what King_Hrothgar listed above. Also agree with a few Chinese aircraft would be nice. Some like the J-7 and Q-5 have been exported too, including Middle Eastern countries. I'd really like people announce and start working on some red jets.

 

Another point I kind of agree is that I also hope 70s-90s era is getting pretty fleshed out, so I hope it'll become more or less complete with as many content as possible from ED and 3rd parties. I love WW II aircraft, and I like curiosity aircraft like armed trainers etc too. I'll keep getting more of them as well, and I hope they will keep coming steadily. At the same time though, at this point I would like more frequent arrival of 3rd to early 4th gen aircraft. We seem to be going to that direction if we look at upcoming modules.

 

Anyway, I think even A-7 wouldn't be around here before 3 years I would say. RAZBAM are still finishing Mirage 2000C, and they have Harrier and F-15E as well as Tucano on their pipeline. A-6 at this point, is really an unknown quantity.

[mattebubben]

Anyway, I think even A-7 wouldn't be around here before 3 years I would say. RAZBAM are still finishing Mirage 2000C, and they have Harrier and F-15E as well as Tucano on their pipeline. A-6 at this point, is really an unknown quantity.

 

Well The A-7 is very far into development.

 

And it probably no further away then the F-15E is (might even be before the F-15E)

 

Just like the F-15E what is currently stopping the A-7

(from what i have gathered)

is the for ED to release their Air-ground radar (that they are developing for the F-18) to the 3rd part devs once its ready.

 

I very much doubt we will have to wait 3 years for the A-7.

 

my guess would be next year.

 

they have been working on the A-7 for a some time

(some Traces for the Razbam DCS A-7 goes back to 2012)

 

And again the reason why they are doing the Harrier and tucano instead of finishing the F-15E and A-7 is not that they have given up on them but rather they have to wait for the Air-ground radar.

 

And as such its likely that a majority of the content that does not relate to air-ground radar / weapons etc might already be "done"

 

 

But this is just from what i understand and have been able to find we would have to get official word from Razbam for a confirmation.

 

But also im pretty sure Razbam has multiple teams.

 

For example not everyone on Razbam was working on the A-7 or the F-15E its very much likely they have seperate teams so they dont really hamper each other.

 

And most likely the same with other projects.

Edited March 13, 2016 by mattebubben

[YoYo]

Time to recall this ;) :

 

 

[Kev2go]

meh

 

a6 intruder has no guns or even any heatseaking missiles. so it is entirely helpless if anyone intercepts you. even something like a Mig15 could prove to be a significant threat.

 

The a6 cant defend itself at all.

 

where as atttacker jets like the A4 skyhawk, A7 corsair , AV8B Harrier, and A10 can

[mattebubben]

meh

 

a6 intruder has no guns or even any heatseaking missiles. so it is entirely helpless if anyone intercepts you. even something like a Mig15 could prove to be a significant threat.

 

The a6 cant defend itself at all.

 

where as atttacker jets like the A4 skyhawk, A7 corsair , AV8B Harrier, and A10 can

 

 

Are you sure about the no heaters part =P.

 

 

 

While i agree the A-7 was more capable at self defense the A-6 was able to carry Aim-9s.

 

Though i dont know if all variants could or how often it did.

 

One significant advantage for the A-7 though.

 

Is that a A-7 could ALWAYS carry 2 aim-9s as it had dedicated Aim-9 pylons.

 

So i could have 2 Aim-9s for self defense and still have 6 wing-pylons for air-ground ordnance or External fuel tanks.

 

Where as the A-6 had 4 wing-pylons and a centerline.

 

So if you wanted to carry two Aim-9s you had to give up half ur Air-ground ordnance.

 

Atleast if you wanted to also carry a centerline fuel tank.

 

So as such the A-6 rarely carried the Aim-9s while the A-7 always carried its aim-9s for missions where it might be needed.

Edited March 13, 2016 by mattebubben

[Spook9]

YES YES YES

 

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk

[Spook9]

I really wonder though what kind of Electronic Warfare capabilities they would put on it though and how that could effect the game

 

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk

[King_Hrothgar]

Jammer on and jammer off. That is the extent of the ECM abilities DCS allows for.

[AG-51_Razor]

The only way it could be better would be if we got the buccaneer. But that's just my UK bias. Although I did read that a few USN pilots said they loved when they flew on exchange programs.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

The Buccaneer would be a totally acceptable substitution for the A-6 as far as I'm concerned :thumbup:

[King_Hrothgar]

What does an obscure WW2 dive bomber have to do with the A-6?

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

..DO NOT PLAY WITH MY FEELINGS.

[Kev2go]

Are you sure about the no heaters part =P.

 

 

 

 

While i agree the A-7 was more capable at self defense the A-6 was able to carry Aim-9s.

 

Though i dont know if all variants could or how often it did.

 

One significant advantage for the A-7 though.

 

Is that a A-7 could ALWAYS carry 2 aim-9s as it had dedicated Aim-9 pylons.

 

So i could have 2 Aim-9s for self defense and still have 6 wing-pylons for air-ground ordnance or External fuel tanks.

 

Where as the A-6 had 4 wing-pylons and a centerline.

 

So if you wanted to carry two Aim-9s you had to give up half ur Air-ground ordnance.

 

Atleast if you wanted to also carry a centerline fuel tank.

 

So as such the A-6 rarely carried the Aim-9s while the A-7 always carried its aim-9s for missions where it might be needed.

 

 

oh sorry, thanks for clarifying

 

 

A6 has potentially multi crew going for it

 

 

But exactly the reason why I vastly am more interested in the A7, its more capable for self defense, has dedicated aim9 pylons & guns. ( Depending on model either revolving cannons or M6a1 vulcan gatling gun)

 

it doesnt sacrifice its hardpoints for the aim9, so you can carry a bigger load.

 

 

that and the a7 offers greater performance. Its a bit faster than the A6.

 

1043 km/h vs 1,111

Edited March 14, 2016 by Kev2go

[Einherjer]

The intruder needs no aim 9 - the intruder is just flying low ;)

[ghostdog688]

It's a totally different attack profile and although they are both designed as ground attack planes, the role of an a-6 is more of a low-level bomber. I don't have the exact stats but saying it "only" has four pylons to the a7's 6+2 aim9's belittles how much you can carry on those 4 pylons in the first place. These intruders were capable of dropping huge numbers of bombs. The a7 can carry lots of ordnance , but not as much as the intruder.

But they are both cool planes i would like to see in DCS!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MBot]

In my eyes the A-6E and A-7E are siblings and just belong together. Along with the F-14A they formed the most diverse and fun carrier air wing IMHO. Great that all of them are coming. I am a bit unsettled though at how much RAZBAM is biting off, especially since most aircraft rely on technology that they are still waiting for. Considering that both the A-6E and A-7E are both among my favourites, I would not by unhappy if one of both would be taken on by LNS for example (especially considering their advance and expertise with their own ground radar, multi-crew implementation and the Tomcat in general).

 

In capabilities, the A-6E and A-7E are actually surprisingly similar. Both are night and adverse weather capable attack aircraft (A-7E has TFR and FLIR too). Both types also can do SEAD. The Intruder generally can do things the Corsair is very good at a bit better (more payload, better range, better precision, less crew stress) at a higher cost and more occupied carrier space. It's a classic high-low mix. The most common CVW configuration was two squadrons of 12 A-7E each and one sqadron with 10 A-6E and 4 KA-6D tankers.

 

Maximum bomb load of the A-6 was 28 500lbs Mk-82 on 5 pylons (inboard MER had the forward-inboard station empty because of the landing gear cover). This was not just an airshow loadout but actually carried in combat.

[thaisocom]

I think they did mention before that they're planning to do A-6 & A-7 down the road.

 

Sent from my C6602 using Tapatalk

[BadHabit]

I would not say no to A-6 or the F-105. Get one of those then get a mig-19 and A-7 we already have the Mig-21 and an AI F-4. Now you only need a new map and you have the best Vietnam era Theater with the best sim platform!

[mattebubben]

It's a totally different attack profile and although they are both designed as ground attack planes, the role of an a-6 is more of a low-level bomber. I don't have the exact stats but saying it "only" has four pylons to the a7's 6+2 aim9's belittles how much you can carry on those 4 pylons in the first place. These intruders were capable of dropping huge numbers of bombs. The a7 can carry lots of ordnance , but not as much as the intruder.

But they are both cool planes i would like to see in DCS!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

The A-6 is a very nice bombtruck.

 

And it had 5 Pylons it can carry bombs on (you can take bombs on the centerline if you dont need the external tank)

 

And sure for the bomb truck mission the A-6 might be able to carry more (as the A-7 is unable to carry the max amount of bombs on each pylon due to spacing aswell as a narrower wing)

 

But were the advantage in pylons comes it its not when bombtrucking its that you can carry many different munitions.

 

For example you can carry 2 Harms 2 pylons with 3x AGM-65s and 2 Pylons with 3x MK-20 cluster bombs and ontop of that 2x aim-9s.

 

While the A-6 would have had to pick as it can not take all of those weapons and as such would be limited in what it can carry.

 

Thats were the Nr of pylons come in.

 

Not the Maximal payload (in weight) but how flexible and how many types of ordnance it can carry for a mission.

 

The advantage the A-6 had when it comes to bombs was that due to having "longer" hardpoints it could carry the launchers that allowed for 6 Mk-82 bombs (two 3x bundles one in front second behind it)

 

Where as the A-7 had shorter Pylons due to more limited space wich limited it to the use of the normal 3x pylons.

 

So for bomb trucking the A-6 has the edge.

 

But for anything else the A-7 can cary a larger mix of weapons.

 

Since those 6x pylons are dumb bombs only.

 

So when it comes to rockets or any kind of guided munitions its limited to the same sorts of pylons the A-7 is.

Edited March 14, 2016 by mattebubben

[MBot]

I would not say no to A-6 or the F-105. Get one of those then get a mig-19 and A-7 we already have the Mig-21 and an AI F-4. Now you only need a new map and you have the best Vietnam era Theater with the best sim platform!

 

I am sure you already know that, but we would have the wrong aircraft versions. Neither the MiG-21bis nor the A-6E TRAM (or A-6E for that matter) served in the Vietnam war :)

[ineth]

My guess is that with all that panspermy of planes out we ought to see sooner or later maps of Viet Nam and Korea too.

 

In 10 years from now DCS will be the crown jewel of the crown jewel of Flight sims.

[MBot]

But their bomb load in number of bombs is very very similar with the A-6 having a slight edge on the Weight of arms it can carry.

 

In practice that is not entierly correct. While the actual bomb loads of course varied with the specific missions, Corsairs in practice carried loads of up to 12 500lbs class weapons (Rockeye, Snakeye or Mk-82) in Vietnam and 6-8 in Desert Storm. The Intruder frequently carried 22 bombs plus the centerline fuel tank.

[NeilWillis]

My guess is that with all that panspermy of planes out we ought to see sooner or later maps of Viet Nam and Korea too.

 

In 10 years from now DCS will be the crown jewel of the crown jewel of Flight sims.

 

You think it will take another 10 years?

 

I suspect that it'll be far far sooner than that. Now we have EDGE, we are awaiting the amalgamation of 1.5.3 and 2.0.1, and very little else to give us the stable platform needed as a foundation for much bigger things to come.

 

We will be seeing some ground breaking modules arriving soon. The F/A-18C, and the F-14 are both on the near horizon, along with the Straits of Hormuz, Normandy, and the entry of RAZBAM into the DCS stable will herald more in-depth simulations in the vein of the M-2000C, which in the short time since it's release has grown, and improved.

 

My prediction is that we will see more and more theatres, and more and more high quality modules. I also see the time scales shrinking as the developers hone their flight model frameworks, and systems frameworks, enabling them to plug in characteristics and reduce their lead times.

 

The coronation may happen far sooner than you imagine.