F-22 Raptor "sucks"

[hitman]

Now he's having 'nam flashbacks...

[SVK_Fox]

:lol:

 

No one has mastered plasma anything ... except maybe plasma incinerators. ;)

 

As for the payment their people received, and the USSR 'keeping up' with anything?

Their stuff was 10-20 years BEHIND when the Cold War ended.

 

With that stuff in Bosnia F-117 was shooted down :music_whistling:

Dont think about old stuuf that it is crap :) It is so easy modificate radar properties if you know how to and what do you want to shoot down.

[GGTharos]

Right, and they're still 10-20 years behind. They shot down one F-117 which they KNEW was going to be there, using optical tracking. The pilot didn't see the launch and didn't maneuver to evade. And? ;)

[GGTharos]

The russians had a comprehensive array of new versions of the Mig-29's and Su-27/3* wich would at least put them in parity with most aircraft in the west but they never had the money to realize those plans even in late USSR times. And the upgrades were repeatedly being dragged in time untill there was no longer the resources to even keep research up to date anymore.

 

All in all the current proposed variants of the Su-30 and the 35/37 are either cancelled or somewhat dated. The mainstay of operational aircraft in russia is average at best, with pilot training realy poor for most efectives. The indians are in better shape with pilot training and their Su-30's but then those are westernized versions of 10 year old upgrade concept of the basic Su-27. The russians not only dont want them for political reasons as well as technical, after all once the western industries are involved half the west knows what makes those flankers tick.

 

Right. None of which matters, since all their stuff is basically 10-20 years behind. 'Could have' and 'Would have' is 'wishing so' ... it certainly isn't so, though, and even when they -did- have manufacturing capability, the slipped behind.

[Alfa]

All in all the current proposed variants of the Su-30 and the 35/37 are either cancelled or somewhat dated.

 

None of these variants have been "cancelled" - nor is there anything "dated" about them Pilotasso.

 

New Flanker variants such as the Su-35, Su-34 and Su-30M and Fulcrum variants such as the MiG-29M and MiG-29K are still very much alive.

 

Moreover, you seem to think that these variants are unaltered from when they were first conceived in the dying days of the Soviet Union - they are not. To take an example; the MiG-29M(9-25) being offered now is a very different airplane to the MiG-29M(9-15) of a decade ago - new cockpit integration, new avionics, new fire-control system, new radar, new digital FBW flight control system, new engines etc.

 

The Indians are in better shape with pilot training and their Su-30's but then those are westernized versions of 10 year old upgrade concept of the basic Su-27.The Russians not only dont want them for political reasons as well as technical, after all once the western industries are involved half the west knows what makes those flankers tick

 

Pilotasso - your perception of this is completely off.

 

First off the Su-30MKI cannot in any way be considered an "upgrade concept of the basic Su-27" - it is an entirely new aircraft loosely based on the Su-27 airframe - everything inside it is different.

 

Secondly, the Russians don't want these new variants simply because they cannot afford them and are instead opting for a more cost effective solution that involves upgrading their existing airframes - making them much more capable while retaining as much as possible of their existing system components. One exception to this is the Su-34 fighter bomber variant which has been accepted by the Russian airforce.

 

Thirdly, you are grossly exaggerating the "westernized" bit - the Su-30MKI is for some 90% composed by Russian made systems and components. The non-Russian systems were integrated specifically on the request of the Indians and are mainly of secondary support nature - the combat systems are Russian. Remember that India is operating a wide variety of aircraft types of divers nature and origins - in order for these to be integrated into the same defense structure and operate effectively on a mission basis, some degree of systems commonology is necessary - not least for navigation and communication.

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Cobra360]

The Su-30MKI has French and Israeli systems installed aswell. The Litening II targeting pod is compatable with the MKI and has been successfully installed on the fighter.

[Camoman]

Oh can it sustain a 9G turn. NO. Don't blow the horn to much on the F-22 it's just getting it's tail feather wet yet.

 

Threads like this are quite ammusing. I was enjoying the reading until I saw this comment. I welcome you to prove me wrong but do you honestly believe that this plane would be made incapable of sustaining 9G. HEELLLOOO lets go spend billions investing in the security of the nation and just forget to add this basic capability. I may be wrong but commonsense tells me otherwise. This is a 5th gen fighter and as such should be capable of all that has come before and more..In this day I don't really see this as being a difficulty anyways with all the materials we are developing and it is well reported that the pilots are becoming the limiting factor when it comes to G limits, not the airframe.

[Guest GreyVL]

camoman, now we judge about capabilities by money investment and national security? in that case bill gates can sustain 20g without loosing breath...

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

They shot down one F-117 which they KNEW was going to be there, using optical tracking. The pilot didn't see the launch and didn't maneuver to evade. And? ;)

And Yugoslavian Air Defense Force did not shoot down more F-117’s (and other aircraft) not because it is a stealthy aircraft, but because Yugoslavians could not turn their radars on.

 

F-22, F-177 and all other aircrafts are just elements (subsystems) of the entire system. F-117 never fly alone. B-2 needs several dozens of support aircraft during the mission.

 

F-22 is good airplane, however, it is the overall system strength that allows many specialized aircraft to do a little bit, so as to get great result of the overall system.

[Cobra360]

With the new G suits, notably the Eurofighter G suit, a pilot can stay at 9G all day with very little effort on the pilot. This suit is also going to be the standard F-35 G suit for all users. These new suits are taking all the stress away from the pilot in terms of staying awake and being able to breath but it won't help trying to turn your head or move your arms under high G.

[Guest IguanaKing]

And Yugoslavian Air Defense Force did not shoot down more F-117’s (and other aircraft) not because it is a stealthy aircraft, but because Yugoslavians could not turn their radars on.

They also would not have shot down the one, if the aircraft had been employed properly by NATO planners. ;)

 

 

What you said about the F-22 being part of a larger system is absolutely true, and its design takes that into account. The F-22 generation of aircraft will share information with friendly forces on an unprecedented level.

[Pilotasso]

None of these variants have been "cancelled" - nor is there anything "dated" about them Pilotasso.

 

New Flanker variants such as the Su-35, Su-34 and Su-30M and Fulcrum variants such as the MiG-29M and MiG-29K are still very much alive.

 

Moreover, you seem to think that these variants are unaltered from when they were first conceived in the dying days of the Soviet Union - they are not. To take an example; the MiG-29M(9-25) being offered now is a very different airplane to the MiG-29M(9-15) of a decade ago - new cockpit integration, new avionics, new fire-control system, new radar, new digital FBW flight control system, new engines etc.

 

 

 

Pilotasso - your perception of this is completely off.

 

First off the Su-30MKI cannot in any way be considered an "upgrade concept of the basic Su-27" - it is an entirely new aircraft loosely based on the Su-27 airframe - everything inside it is different.

 

Secondly, the Russians don't want these new variants simply because they cannot afford them and are instead opting for a more cost effective solution that involves upgrading their existing airframes - making them much more capable while retaining as much as possible of their existing system components. One exception to this is the Su-34 fighter bomber variant which has been accepted by the Russian airforce.

 

Thirdly, you are grossly exaggerating the "westernized" bit - the Su-30MKI is for some 90% composed by Russian made systems and components. The non-Russian systems were integrated specifically on the request of the Indians and are mainly of secondary support nature - the combat systems are Russian. Remember that India is operating a wide variety of aircraft types of divers nature and origins - in order for these to be integrated into the same defense structure and operate effectively on a mission basis, some degree of systems commonology is necessary - not least for navigation and communication.

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

 

Fair enough alfa.

I have a book wich Im using for referrence wich is 3 years old. Its very pessimistic regarding even the exports to china and India. Russia delivered its first Su-30 as basic trainers and failed to fullfill the contract for the first batch untill that time.The 3 russian sukhoi factories were competing for the maufacture and then they all failed to output enough, neither could they equip them with the requested advanced features. I know since then both those countries built their own Su-30's.

 

I was under impression (not read on this book) that some of the avionics comuters used European CPU chips and israeli ECM aparatus. I would say that those 10% of foreign components are very relevant and important on those fighters dont you think? ;)

[Pilotasso]

F-22, F-177 and all other aircrafts are just elements (subsystems) of the entire system. F-117 never fly alone. B-2 needs several dozens of support aircraft during the mission.

 

As all aircraft do for better efficiency, even the latest Russian gang bang. :D

They can operate without that support but The F-22 has less to loose from that, and it wont rely on other escorts or dedicated EW aircraft that would betray its presence but an AWACS very far away and safe from the front line. ;) or from a sister aircraft that you cant see anyway.

 

Regarding the B-2 its more or less what I told above except that it may use that support in the form of statelite data feed, or tankers, in either case, very far from the batle field, again because not only it doesnt need to betray its postion with a trailer acting as a beacon but because its ultra long ranged, so by the time it crosses enemy lines all its support is long left behind it.

[rattler]

This was shown on a TV program about a Month ago. It was said and flattly stated that the F-22 could not maintain a 9g turn. I think the people who produced the TV program and talked to the Pilots should have gotten the facts straight, don't you. It was on the Military channel, a 1 hour program devoted to the new A/C of today. If the F-22 can do it, I have not found any info to that fact yet and I have looked into both A/C. If I missed something then I apologize. I just passed on what I saw and heard on the Program. Don't shoot the messenger.

[rattler]

ya, your probably right. Not knocking the F-22 but Ef-2000 not bad either, that's all. I would imagine there are other A/C from other Countries with similar systems or systems ready to be installed. It takes a long time to roll out one of these birds out and mean while technology keeps running ahead. Go here and read info on both.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ef2000/

[Camoman]

camoman, now we judge about capabilities by money investment and national security? in that case bill gates can sustain 20g without loosing breath...

 

Yes it is very much about money investment and national security. Quite precisely how much money have we got to obtain the best piece of equipment for national security. The people who make the decisions have a budget which planes will be built according to and if their budget is as large as the US defence departments then what I am saying is that im sure that the capabilities afforded are quite top notch, i.e. the F22 surely can sustain a 9G turn.

 

Any new capability must come from people who go to work (and get paid most often than not) to research and implement them. It sure dont come from some big black hole and just pop into existance and without money to fund all the material, wages, labs, prototypes, etc, etc..

 

Or from another perspective, do you think anybody would invest billions in this new fighter with all its stealthy bells and whistles and then find *when* it gets into a turning fight it cant perform and they lose the whole package over the ommitance of a simple mechanical capability?? These people would not be spending thier money unless they were sure they were buying the best it could afford them.

 

So yes IMO capability can be judged to a large extent by money and national security requirements since the more money you have the more capabilities you can research and implement into the final product.

[chrno120]

F-22? Top ten fighters of the world? at Discovery? whatever....

 

If they placed F-16, F/A-18 or other aircraft in that slot, It's much easier to believe...

 

That Multi-billion dollar Flying Composite Material has no combat record yet, better yet their claim of knocking Eurofighters, Flankers & others where just, F-15's

 

It even made his pilot earn the name "Spam" by pad locking the canopy shut hence pilot can't get out. they had to saw open the canopy..

what's next, Luncheon Meat, Vienna Sausage & Sardines?

 

IMHO I think i'll call this media hype

 

Peace~!

[GGTharos]

Yeah, 'just' F-15's ... the aircraft with a 100+ :0 combat record.

 

Just.

[chrno120]

because the F-15 is not a Flanker nor a Eurofighter

 

Now I'm not saying the F-15 suck... what I'm pointing is that they shouldn't label the F-22's true opponent the F-15 as Eurofighter or other Aircraft because they aren't supposed to fight and perform in the same manner

[GGTharos]

And in what manner are they supposed to fight and perform in then? O.o

[chrno120]

Ok, ok I sounded like degrading the F-15 my mistake, I apologize

 

I suck and should just shut-up if i have nothing to say

[Big Nuts]

Yeah, 'just' F-15's ... the aircraft with a 100+ :0 combat record.

 

Just.

 

I've heard this before, but it's not entirely true is it?

 

At least one Israeli F15 was shot down in (wherever the hell it was) Lebanon perhaps? It was lured towards a SAM site and BLAM! So that's 100+ to 1. :)

[STRIKER]

I've heard this before, but it's not entirely true is it?

 

At least one Israeli F15 was shot down in (wherever the hell it was) Lebanon perhaps? It was lured towards a SAM site and BLAM! So that's 100+ to 1. :)

 

I believe he was referring to air to air engagements....not surface to air. It being the current air supremacy fighter...not for the wild weasel missions.

[Big Nuts]

Yeah, but it gets chalked up on the combat record :)

[Fufunka]

With that stuff in Bosnia F-117 was shooted down :music_whistling:

Dont think about old stuuf that it is crap :) It is so easy modificate radar properties if you know how to and what do you want to shoot down.

 

There were some rumors that this F117 was tracked by the early version of the Vera passive radar system used to be made in Czechoslovakia, right?

Now these passive radar systems are part of NATO so they blocked sales to China etc..