Recommended controls setup

[1.JaVA_Platypus]

I need a bit of help and I think it would be good to see some discussion on this issue. By now, I think all of us have crashed the Gazelle a few times because of its exceptional 'agility' :lol:

 

I have a normal joystick without any length modifications and seperate rudder pedals. With other DCS Helis, I have all three curves set on "25". I can pinpoint the Mi-8 anywhere I want (including hoovering without hand on the stick) and I am a decent UH-1 pilot. But the Gazelle is giving me a handfull. So now I am flying it without and custom joystick curves or responses at all and no dead-zone. Most of the time, I can keep it airborne now.

 

But I am very curious at the setup of other people (or one of the Polychop guys!) This includes curves, use of trimmer button, trimmer hat and magnetic brake.

Edited April 30, 2016 by 1.JaVA_Platypus

[CrimsonGhost]

I too would be interested in what others have found that works for them. In my case, the X-55 in particular.

[Gizzy]

Originally I put in 25% curves, then after a chat with an experienced guy involved in testing the model during development, at his suggestion, I dropped the Y axis on pitch and roll to 70%, in fact even go as far as 50% and work up, it is easy in DCS2 in flight so to speak.

 

This (70%) works for me with no curves on TMWH setup + 12cm ext.

 

Remember not to fly the craft like the Huey, absolutely minimal stick movements.... if it is getting out of hand, centre stick and pedals and wait a little, let the systems stabilise it, then gentle movements and away you go.

 

If you bank, just centre the stick to return to level... not a large opposite stick movement..

 

Hope this helps a little..

[elcoo]

I'm using a Saitek X52 Pro, no seperate pedals yet, with a 16 curve on every axis (apart from collective)

With a little training I was able to control the Gazelle just fine, even though not as smoothly as with the Huey yet.

I think the main problem is with the cyclic. The trim button does not affect it as far as I know, so you'll always have to twist the stick a little. I tend to cramp my hands after a while because of that :P

I'd love to see a feature as with the Huey, where you could enable the trim button for the cyclic in the special settings. I know it's not 100% realistic, but it would be a nice option for users without seperate pedals.

[gospadin]

I have been using 50% cyclic saturation and 70% rudder saturation with good effect. (Warthog + Saitek Combat pedals)

 

Curves at 0.

[Grogshop]

I too would be interested in what others have found that works for them. In my case, the X-55 in particular.

 

I have an X55, I swapped to the lightest spring, given the small movements this chopper needs, its a lot nicer not fighting the spring tension.

I'm running 15 curve & 80 Y saturation on the cyclic, and I'm happy with that.

Linear collective.

20 Curve on the rudder, I use the top throttle rotary, trying to use the cyclic with the twist rudder is painful to me, both literally & figuratively.

 

I need to tweak the rudder settings, she is pretty damn sensitive still, oh well, back to Nellis I go!

[King_Hrothgar]

With an X-55 and CH pedals, I'm using 50% cyclic saturation, 60% yaw saturation and linear control (pedals are hardware inverse curve, curved in game to be linear).

[Drakoz]

Get a FFB stick if you can or fly with no spring in your stick. Real helicopter cyclics don't have any (or much) spring feel. Well, that's true with any aircraft, but at speed, wind pushes on the control surfaces attempting to push the stick back to center. This is not true in a helicopter. So springs in the joystick really hamper the experience in sims like in DCS.

 

The center detent of the spring mechanism is the problem. The force needed to over come that center detent gets in the way of the minute stick movement you need to have if the stick is being moved through it's center.

 

I have a Microsoft FFB 2. This is arguably the best FFB stick made. But really, any FFB stick (even with FFB disabled) is better than a stick with a spring. You can also consider removing, or significantly reducing the spring force in your non FFB stick like Grogshop suggested above. The spring mode for a HOTAS Warthog, for example, is a huge improvement. Another alternative is to extent the stick by 2X or 3X length, giving you more leverage to overcome the spring and detent. Doing so also affects the saturation and curvature settings in DCS, perhaps making them more realistic, or at least easier to fly.

 

BTW, when flying in DCS (Huey, or otherwise), I use simFFB to control the Force Feedback effect, not DCS's FFB controls. For example, Gazelle currently does not have FFB support. But simFFB adds realistic friction, spring, and dampening force to simulate how a real stick might feel due to friction and hydraulic trim systems. You can adjust all three settings in simFFB (Spring, Damper, and Friction). To use it, you load DCS, enter your flight, alt-tab out to Windows and run (or reset) simFFB, and it takes over FFB control from DCS. SimFFB also has trim capabilities built in to replace the equivalent controls in DCS. So you can set a trim button, or use the hat, and simFFB will adjust trim just like in DCS or a real aircraft.

 

As for saturation and curvature settings in DCS Gazelle, I'm using about 10-15 curvature, but actually changing saturation is probably better as suggested above. But don't reduce sensitivity too much. Real helicopters are very sensitive. Anti-torque should be more of a muscle flex, not a foot movement, and same for the cyclic. I fly with 3 fingers on the stick and move my fingers, not the hand, to stay in control. I learned this flying a real helicopter (as a novice pilot) because it made it easier being new to flying, and reduced stress and fatigue on my hand.

 

Regards,

Michael

[1.JaVA_Platypus]

This is true. But my desk space is limited and I want to use my joystick for different things then only the Gazelle (or the Huey for that matter) I sold my G940. It was brilliant with force-trim on the HELO's available for DCS at the time. But it was horrible with other DCS modules.

[Ayindi]

I enabled "easy controls" in the options which seems to decrease the saturation by a good amount. Now I have the feeling that I can control her. Before, looking at the stick seemed to move her in that direction... ;) Not sure what easy controls do exactly, but I have the feeling that the normal controls are too sensitive for a normal joystick without extension.

[NeilWillis]

Reducing the saturation works very well for me too. I have 300mm of extension tubes on my Warthog joystick, and I've been trying between 60 and 50% saturation on the cyclic, and 60 and 70% on the rudder bar (MFG Crosswinds), and that works amazingly well. I'm still fine tuning it, but the saturation reduction certainly makes the Gazelle far less twitchy.

[kam]

After several crashes due to me being a ham-fisted ape on the cyclic, I took the time and learned to fly with all the default settings. To me it seems more like it would be in RL for this type of helicopter, with using just 2 or 3 fingers on top of the cyclic to control the movement.

 

I use a Warthog with the spring mod.

[cellinsky]

With my CH-Gear, wich has very light spring tensions, I use a saturation of 70% for each axes to compensate for the short stick and thight rudder. Cyclic though the throttle with default settings. Curves are at 0 for all axes. Very agil but not twichy this way for me. It reminds me on my Ecureille for x-plane wich is similar agile...

 

Marcel

[MegOhm_SD]

Appeared Wags handled it pretty well in the video. I would be interested to know what his controller settings are and what the devs that built it use, if any. And of course which controllers. I believe Wags uses the TMWH?

 

That would provide a starting point at least instead of trial and error.

Edited May 1, 2016 by MegOhm_SD

[Drakoz]

Control setup is always trial and error. Everyone want's something different. It's a preference and experience thing. Novice pilots usually want less sensitivity. Experienced pilots usually want more sensitivity. There's a reason the real thing is very sensitive as this is generally preferred for better control. But it makes it very difficult for novice pilots.

 

It's just a matter of practice and getting used to it. Because DCS is a sim, you can adjust the curvature and saturation to fit your preference or allow you to work up to the more sensitive settings. In a real helicopter, you don't get to do that. I'm not a pilot, but I have flown both Robinson R44 and R22 helicopters. Because I flew DCS Huey at high sensitivity settings, I was able fly the real thing, including holding the R44 in a 5 foot hover with no instructor assistance in my first flight. If I had not learned to fly DCS Huey at high sensitivity, I would not have been able to do that.

 

The main issue is the spring in the joystick. Significantly loosen that up, or remove it (so as to get rid of the 0 crossing detent) and you'll see a marked improvement in your control of a DCS helicopter.

 

For a helicopter, there is no "stick center" because "center" depends on conditions such as wind, desired attitude, and helicopter design. So the spring center just messes everything up. For example, a US type Helicopter (CCW rotor rotation like the Huey) must have the stick held slightly to the left to maintain a flat hover in 0 wind. European helicopters (like the Gazelle) require a slight amount of right stick to maintain a flat hover in 0 wind. Now create your own mission and add about 10-15 knots of wind and practice hovering in ground effect (5-10 feet off the ground) with different orientations to the wind. You will always have to keep that stick pulled slightly into the wind. Again, the joystick spring just makes this very difficult.

 

You'll also find that anti-torque authority constantly changes depending on wind orientation as well, and the center detent on your rudder pedals makes this difficult as well. I have my pedal's spring set at the minimum setting, and I have considered removing the spring altogether, but the Saitek Pro Combat Pedals seem to have a small enough spring and center detent that it hasn't been a big issue.

 

So it's the spring and center detent that is the issue on the stick, not the sensitivity. Getting used to a sensitive stick is part of learning to fly a real helicopter. Dealing with a center detent and spring is not.

 

Also, drop your graphics settings to maintain at least 30 FPS, and ideally better. In order to fly a sensitive aircraft, you need to have a fast feedback loop (eyes to hands), and that means a high frame rate. Flying a real helicopter is also a very visual process, not seat of the pants as you might think. You must use references like the horizon to keep the helicopter stable. The same is true in DCS, but if your frame rate is so bad that you are flying a slide show, this amplifies the bad effect of a sensitive controller, making it feel impossible to fly.

 

Regards,

Michael

[Lymark]

Anyone with a Saitek pro flight rudder mind to share your setting?

 

This is my first helicopter ever, so i'm not sure how sensitive it has to be in order to get as close as the real thing.

[gospadin]

Anyone with a Saitek pro flight rudder mind to share your setting?

 

This is my first helicopter ever, so i'm not sure how sensitive it has to be in order to get as close as the real thing.

 

I have the saitek combat pedals, and 70% saturation gives me plenty of rudder authority.

 

The point of highest deflection will be a right-rotation while hovering. Most everything else you do will require less deflection. 70% saturation means I hover with about half pedal deflection to the right, which is still more-or-less comfortable, without being too twitchy.

 

As to the "real" thing, real helicopter pedals don't auto-center, so you'd simply need to take out your centering spring.

[retired_old_sarge]

Get a FFB stick if you can or fly with no spring in your stick. Real helicopter cyclics don't have any (or much) spring feel. Well, that's true with any aircraft, but at speed, wind pushes on the control surfaces attempting to push the stick back to center. This is not true in a helicopter. So springs in the joystick really hamper the experience in sims like in DCS.

 

The center detent of the spring mechanism is the problem. The force needed to over come that center detent gets in the way of the minute stick movement you need to have if the stick is being moved through it's center.

 

I have a Microsoft FFB 2. This is arguably the best FFB stick made. But really, any FFB stick (even with FFB disabled) is better than a stick with a spring. You can also consider removing, or significantly reducing the spring force in your non FFB stick like Grogshop suggested above. The spring mode for a HOTAS Warthog, for example, is a huge improvement. Another alternative is to extent the stick by 2X or 3X length, giving you more leverage to overcome the spring and detent. Doing so also affects the saturation and curvature settings in DCS, perhaps making them more realistic, or at least easier to fly.

 

BTW, when flying in DCS (Huey, or otherwise), I use simFFB to control the Force Feedback effect, not DCS's FFB controls. For example, Gazelle currently does not have FFB support. But simFFB adds realistic friction, spring, and dampening force to simulate how a real stick might feel due to friction and hydraulic trim systems. You can adjust all three settings in simFFB (Spring, Damper, and Friction). To use it, you load DCS, enter your flight, alt-tab out to Windows and run (or reset) simFFB, and it takes over FFB control from DCS. SimFFB also has trim capabilities built in to replace the equivalent controls in DCS. So you can set a trim button, or use the hat, and simFFB will adjust trim just like in DCS or a real aircraft.

 

As for saturation and curvature settings in DCS Gazelle, I'm using about 10-15 curvature, but actually changing saturation is probably better as suggested above. But don't reduce sensitivity too much. Real helicopters are very sensitive. Anti-torque should be more of a muscle flex, not a foot movement, and same for the cyclic. I fly with 3 fingers on the stick and move my fingers, not the hand, to stay in control. I learned this flying a real helicopter (as a novice pilot) because it made it easier being new to flying, and reduced stress and fatigue on my hand.

 

Regards,

Michael

 

I just got a FFB2 ordered off EBAY. I have saitek pro pedals and am setting up a X52 throttle to use as a collective. Is it possible that you can share you bindings profile with me. I am new on the Joy Sticks and just got my controls. I built a stand based on Rodger Dodger plans.

 

Thank You And I really could use some help with my profiles.. I really have no idea as to what I actually need to bind other then the pitch, roll, collective etc..

 

Thank you very much if you can help or maybe post what you have set up so I can follow it and set mine up to. I do know I will need to tweek to for my use but I need help in getting started. I bought the Huey.. with a couple campaigns and really am enjoying it as I learn more..

[FragBum]

Anyone with a Saitek pro flight rudder mind to share your setting?

 

This is my first helicopter ever, so i'm not sure how sensitive it has to be in order to get as close as the real thing.

 

I have the combat pro rudders so similar I'm currently running -12 curvature, initially try about +20 to 30 this will reduce your initial tendency to over-correct but as you get better you can reduce that, negative values will give more authority over the toque correction input.

 

As for other controls if anyone is interested,.

 

For the Huey my first heli and is valid for the Gazelle too, when I started with a Logitech 3D Pro. If you don't have toque (rudder) pedals that would be something to consider.

 

Like a lot of people I started with the cyclic Saturation dialled down to mid 20's this was partly for 2 reasons in hind sight.

 

1) The grip of death.

 

2) Being ham-fisted with the cyclic. Something you never do in a Gazelle. :music_whistling:

 

The other thing that makes it difficult is the centre detent in the joystick it doesn't belong there, it's not there in a real helicopter and it's annoying for restricting fine control.

 

I now have a modified Logitech with no centre detent and an extension mounted under the front of my chair. SimPit WIP. I now have no saturation or even negative saturation aka more sensitive.

 

That and some other changes occurred after getting some stick time (all controls at times) in an R44. :)

 

I don't think it's bad to reduce the sensitivity of cyclic controls when starting I don't consider any curves or dead spots to be valid. That cyclic had no play and seemed quite linear in effect.

 

The other major control to contend with is collective for a long time I used the "slider" control on the Logitech 3D Pro so I added curvature to attempt to get a logarithmic kinda response, give the short movement. That made pickup and touchdown a lot more controllable.

 

I now have an actual home made "collective" and the only curvature added is to get proportional movement of the in game collective movement to physical collective movement. :thumbup:

 

VR I don't care what people say about the resolution yes it's lower but when your 50ft above ground doing a hard turn and you look sideways over your shoulder to see the houses and features wizz by and the Huey is banked up at 90deg Yes there nice moments but for situational awareness I think it brings simming to a new level.

Edited May 15, 2017 by FragBum
typo

[retired_old_sarge]

I am new but what I have and am working on is.. I built the Rodger Dodger control stand with a couple modifications. I got a FFB2 stick from E bay to use for Helo's along with a X52 throttle to use as a Collective which I will mount and leave mounted. I did get Saitek Pro pedals. I have a X52 PRO set up for use with other things. I am experimanting with the settings for my FFB and X52 as a collective setting it at about -20 and the FFB controls at about +25 or so and have found flying the Huey with those settings allowes me less Crash Craters. As I said I am new and still playing with the settings and learning here.

[Drakoz]

I just got a FFB2 ordered off EBAY. I have saitek pro pedals and am setting up a X52 throttle to use as a collective. Is it possible that you can share you bindings profile with me. ...

 

Thank You And I really could use some help with my profiles.. I really have no idea as to what I actually need to bind other then the pitch, roll, collective etc..

 

Not sure there's much I can say that you probably haven't already figured out. But I'll assume nothing and explain my setup.

 

Axis Tuning for Cyclic and Rudder...

 

For everything, I set Deadzone=0, Saturation X and Y = 100 (these are default). Deadzone will only make flying more difficult as the center of the stick will have a dead spot, and Saturation will remove max deflection which reduces the control available on the helicopter. For the Curvature, I started out (like you), with a curvature (about 15-20) while I was learning, but as you get more comfortable flying, you should reduce the curvature to less than 10, or even set it to 0. A real helicopter is _very_ sensitive which is more like curvature 10 or less in DCS depending on the length of your joystick. If you use any kind of stick extender, then your curvature should be 0 or close to 0.

 

This is if you want the cyclic and rudders to mimic a real helicopter. If you don't care about that, then set these numbers to taste. It's a sim and this is meant for fun, so it doesn't really matter. In my case, however, setting DCS to a realistic sensitivity helped greatly in my ability to fly a real helicopter the first few times.

 

While you are learning to fly, hold the stick with 3 fingers, not a full hand. Rest your arm on something and move the stick just with your fingers. This gives you better control over the very small movements required on the stick and reduces arm pump (muscle strain on your entire arm) because it is easier to relax. It's how I learned to fly an real R22 starting out as well. Learning to relax your arm (and yourself period) is critical to learning to fly a helicopter.

 

Axis Tuning for Collective...

 

Unless there is a special reason to do so this should be set to default. Deadzone = 0, Saturation X and Y = 100, Curvature = 0. There is generally no reason to change these unless you are trying to match or fix some kind of non-linear situation caused by your cockpit setup (which I gather is why you changed them).

 

Button setup and other settings (I think this is what you really asked for)

 

How you set up your buttons is entirely a matter of taste. I always look at the cyclic and collective buttons for the real helicopter (in the DCS manual) and try to match those buttons on my joystick and HOTAS Warthog throttle as much as possible. For example, the collective on a Huey has search light controls. I set those up as well on my collective, and I have flown some missions where using the search light makes for a fun experience. Then I add other functions as desired to make flying easier. But again, this is entirely a preference thing.

 

Because the MS FFB2 stick doesn't have enough buttons to map everything on the Huey's real cyclic to the FFB2 stick, I mapped some of those to my Warthog HOTAS throttle instead. The point being, you want these controls accessible without having to touch a keyboard (remove your hands from the controls).

 

Also, for the FFB Tune menu for the MS FFB2, I have played with the Trimmer Force some, but I've always kept the shake at the default 50. But since I use simFFB, the FF Tune menu in DCS is bypassed and simFFB sets all that. When you run simFFB, it takes complete control of the FFB functions away from DCS.

 

DCS has done some improvements to the FFB functions since I last played with all this, so it's time I try DCS FFB (no simFFB) and see how it has changed. Also, FFB effects are slightly different from one aircraft to the other as they are controlled by the aircraft maker, not generically by DCS.

 

Not sure that really said anything useful, but since you asked...

 

Regards,

Michael

Edited June 1, 2017 by Drakoz

[FragBum]

Not sure there's much I can say that you probably haven't already figured out. But I'll assume nothing and explain my setup.

 

 

Axis Tuning for Collective...

 

Unless there is a special reason to do so this should be set to default. Deadzone = 0, Saturation X and Y = 100, Curvature = 0. There is generally no reason to change these unless you are trying to match or fix some kind of non-linear situation caused by your cockpit setup (which I gather is why you changed them).

 

 

Maybe,. however if you do not have the same angular travel and hence as you say correct linearity of transfer as I found when I built my own collective used a linear pot so no curves there however I found to match the proportional movement of collective to the movement of the sim collective I have to add some curvature.

 

Gotta say having an actual collective and a VSim really helps for helicopters.

 

 

The other point for me and based on my very limited experience is to match the apparent amount of authority the pedals had in the R44 verses movement of my feet, I have had to use some curvature, this seems to match with the toque pedal movement in both the Gazelle and Huey in sim vs actual physical pedal movement.

 

I have the Combat Pro pedals and I'm getting close to removing the detent or making my own pedals. :thumbup:

 

Don't know about the switches sound's right I just haven't done much with them yet and still use the keyboard for flying. Working on what's needed for my VSim pit its a WIP. :music_whistling:

 

The Cyclic, no doubt about it 110% as I have said in various other posts after doing a trial introductory flight in an R44, I came back and worked on bringing the saturation back to 100% and now that I'm building a VSim pit I'm experimenting with negative saturation now I have an extension in the cyclic, again to mimic the apparent sim cyclic movement to the sim cyclic movement. That experience convinced me to ditch the centre detent there is just no going back. :helpsmilie:

 

Just thought I would mention it so as not to rule it out when fine tuning your pit.

 

Hovering, I was a bit dodgy initially but after a while I got it and it changed the way I reference the aircraft to the rest of the world. Well instructor said I was okay and he didn't even hang up when I sounded out for another go at it latter this year. :lol:

 

Not sure that really said anything useful, but since you asked...

 

Regards,

Michael

 

Indeed useful. I just thought I would add my 2 Bobs worth. :thumbup:

 

Robert

[Rogue Trooper]

You got a collective FragBum? Now I am jealous!

[FragBum]

You got a collective FragBum? Now I am jealous!

;)

 

cheap but very effective. here in the forum

[FragBum]

@Drakoz

 

Loose the detent and spring in the Combat Pro Pedals it's much better. :thumbup:

 

n.b. Saitek need to think harder on the way they route cables you need to be careful.