Flight Model feedback from ATAL

[zerO_crash]

I have the impression you do not understand what "light on the skids" means. It means pulling enough collective so that not all the helicopter weight rests on the skids, but not so much for the skids to completely separate from the ground.

 

Please watch this video:

 

 

In the first 3 demonstrations I am pulling just enough collective for the helicopter to become light on the skids. Note that the helicopter starts to slide forward, which I counter with considerable aft cyclic. The forward movement cannot be stopped until the helicopter pitches up. A stabilization in this phase is virtually impossible (so far no one has demonstrated it). In the fourth attempt I am pulling more collective to go straight into a fully airborne hover, which is easily done.

 

Well I do understand what it means, but I hope you realize that it cannot really be done efficiently with the helicopter, as it`s rotor in a relaxed state is pulling you forward. And countering that really doesn`t help much except striking your tail. It is possible to get light on the skids, but there are two thing about it:

 

a) why bother, it`s impractical

b) if only for the sake of trying it, then know that it requires quite the touch so as to balance it somewhere in between, thinking here of forward slide and tail strike. That in addition of constant changes if you got wind in your mission (not sure if you have, but any wind is of big impact on this chopper)

 

But your issue is partly related with what I mentioned with the landing gear not flexing enough, cause if you look at the real thing behaviour, much of it`s ground behaviour is due to the landing gear flexing (bending), this is of essence if you wish to "go light on skids"

Edited May 12, 2016 by zerO_crash

[msalama]

In fact the majority of people I've seen comment are RW pilots.

 

And yet, those two RL Gazelle pilots mentioned in the first post of the thread seem to think the FM is great.

 

This thing is vastly different from anything else in DCS currently, I give you that. But wrong? Not necessarily, the stab system just _is_ that strong apparently.

 

PS. Also see this comment from a RW Huey pilot: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2775070&postcount=42

[kobac]

In RL pilot can see all these small movements which make the helicopter due to a variety of moments that affect it during takeoff. So all these things are counteract with flight controls. Because of this Gazelle takes off quite nice vertically without moving forward or tilting the tail.

 

By vertical landing she tends to land first with the right ski down (more precisely the rear end of the right skis) and then lands on the entire right ski. After that lands on the left ski. No matter what the surface she never slip after landing, except of course on ice. :)

 

Excuse me for my English if I wasn't clear enough.

[Yurgon]

Mbot, please read your post again, and thoroughly please! [...]

 

Dedicated thread: So, is it possible to do a stable pick-up into hover?

 

Long story short: "Light on the skids" and "Take-off into hover" is not the same thing, and there's no contradiction in what MBot wrote. But, please, let's continue the discussion in the dedicated thread if you feel you actually have anything to add.

[j0nx]

Poly Roie: please forgive me if this was already mentioned somewhere in this thread but if you say that RW Gazelle pilots said the FM was accurate and the ship flies like it does in real life then what kind of controls were the actual pilots using and what kind of curves to get it that way? Are they all using long stick cyclics, X55's, etc. Thanks mate.

[Yurgon]

[...] what kind of controls were the actual pilots using and what kind of curves to get it that way?

 

Sure, Warthog with no curves or saturations.

 

Using a stick extension?

 

Will ask him tomorrow, he's offline now.

 

Don't think the question about the extension has been answered yet, but I might have missed that.

[Shughart]

Don't think the question about the extension has been answered yet, but I might have missed that.

 

I can answer that. I'm the actual first guy whom Roie was talking about .

I don't have extension on my warthog, and I found out that adding a bit a curve was more confortable.

[Yurgon]

I can answer that. I'm the actual first guy whom Roie was talking about .

I don't have extension on my warthog, and I found out that adding a bit a curve was more confortable.

 

Good to know, thanks! Interestingly enough, I also use a slight curve of 15 for Pitch and Roll with the TM Warthog without extension (also 15 curve for yaw axis with MFG Crosswinds) and that feels pretty good IMO. :thumbup:

 

Seeing as you're a subject matter expert, can you comment on the light on the skids sliding?

[Shughart]

Good to know, thanks! Interestingly enough, I also use a slight curve of 15 for Pitch and Roll with the TM Warthog without extension (also 15 curve for yaw axis with MFG Crosswinds) and that feels pretty good IMO. :thumbup:

 

Seeing as you're a subject matter expert, can you comment on the light on the skids sliding?

 

I've put 10 curve and 80% saturation on both pitch and axis, and i've touched the rudder as well as it is a bit overreactive.

 

I must precise that I've worked with the ALAT, I wasn't a Gazelle pilot. I'm a fixed wing pilot. The other dude Roie was talking about is my best friend who is an actual pilot of SA-342M HOT in the Army.

For that matter you submitted I will ask him ASAP.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

And yet, those two RL Gazelle pilots mentioned in the first post of the thread seem to think the FM is great.

 

Oh I think it's great too, but unless it's 100% (which isn't possible within the realms of a desktop sim anyway) there's always scope for errors, and it'll take a little bit more than a vague second hand report that does nothing to address this specific question to convince me, and I expect I'm not the only one.

 

If an actual Gazelle pilot comes on here and says that there's no way to prevent a forward drift when lifting then that'll do for me, but until then I remain sceptical that any helo would be designed such that you have to balance it on the back of its skids to lift off gently.

[gospadin]

I'm genuinely surprised the current behaviors were confirmed. They would appear to defy the basic physics of helicopter flight, specifically attempts to reach an equilibrium with various amounts of cyclic input.

Edited May 12, 2016 by gospadin

[chobbsUH60]

Well I do understand what it means, but I hope you realize that it cannot really be done efficiently with the helicopter, as it`s rotor in a relaxed state is pulling you forward. And countering that really doesn`t help much except striking your tail. It is possible to get light on the skids, but there are two thing about it:

 

a) why bother, it`s impractical

b) if only for the sake of trying it, then know that it requires quite the touch so as to balance it somewhere in between, thinking here of forward slide and tail strike. That in addition of constant changes if you got wind in your mission (not sure if you have, but any wind is of big impact on this chopper)

 

But your issue is partly related with what I mentioned with the landing gear not flexing enough, cause if you look at the real thing behaviour, much of it`s ground behaviour is due to the landing gear flexing (bending), this is of essence if you wish to "go light on skids"

 

Are you a pilot in real life? Because I fully understand what Mbpt was talking about but specifically you asking "why would you want to go light on skids?" Have you ever heard of air assault units? It's similar to us in Blackhawks but we have wheels obviously and we extend our struts preparing for a load up and take off. It allows us to take off at the same time in similar fashion. Different pilots have different speeds going from a full resting idle to light on skids/wheels and then I'm airborn. But light on skids/wheels allows for a more uniform takeoff. It also is a requirement when we are picking up troops in a combat environment with a hot extract. I'm not saying your completely wrong, but his point is that the balancing point that you are talking about is UNACHIEVABLE. There is no reason why a helicopter should start to slide on skids and then strike the tail without the slide being arrested. Someone mentioned it already and I agree with him though, i do not think its a problem with the FM so much a problem with friction between the new map surfaces and the skids.

 

Oh I think it's great too, but unless it's 100% (which isn't possible within the realms of a desktop sim anyway) there's always scope for errors, and it'll take a little bit more than a vague second hand report that does nothing to address this specific question to convince me, and I expect I'm not the only one.

 

If an actual Gazelle pilot comes on here and says that there's no way to prevent a forward drift when lifting then that'll do for me, but until then I remain sceptical that any helo would be designed such that you have to balance it on the back of its skids to lift off gently.

 

100% agree

[sorcer3r]

Here is a smooth RL takeoff (military variant). I do not see any "huge" pitch correction to prevent any forward slide.

 

 

 

Someone mentioned it already and I agree with him though, i do not think its a problem with the FM so much a problem with friction between the new map surfaces and the skids.

 

yes, maybe that's it and hopefully it can be fixed.

[flyer49]

That last YouTube video is a great source of information concerning this thread. All of the helicopters that I have flown have a unique way of coming off of the ground that are common to their type. For instance, after coming light on the skids, the UH-1 will come off of the ground left, rear skid low...in other word, the last part of the aircraft to have contact with the ground is the left rear heal of the skid. The reason that I bring this up is that some of the pilots on this thread are making good points with their descriptions of the Gazelle sliding forward in an undesirable way.

 

There is a good example of a UH-1 taking off to a hover in the same video page

 

[ame]

[/ame]

 

All pilots are trained to react to these unique characteristic but they are not overly dramatic like we might find with the Polychop Gazelle. As you can see in the Gazelle video there is a “slight” dip to the nose as the aircraft leaves the ground but it immediately corrects itself into a stable hover. What I see is an aircraft that comes off of the ground slightly right skid nose low and then level out. All Gazelles with this configuration (weight, winds, DA) should come off of the ground in the same basic way. This is what I would expect of an advanced aircraft with a SAS system. This may be critical to the issue and once addressed, I believe the Gazelle will be a nice air frame to fly.

 

P.S. Just as a side note…I’m an Instructor Pilot with my on-line organization (the 229th) and the first thing that I teach my new students when instructing them on stable hovering flight is “coming light on the skids.” Once you’ve achieved control of the aircraft while it’s light on the skids, you can easily come to a steady and stable five foot hover.

Edited May 12, 2016 by flyer49

[Charly_Owl]

P.S. Just as a side note…I’m an Instructor Pilot with my on-line organization (the 229th) and the first thing that I teach my new students when instructing them on stable hovering flight is “coming light on the skids.” Once you’ve achieved control of the aircraft while it’s light on the skids, you can easily come to a steady and stable five foot hover.

 

Aye, you even taught me! I still remember that lesson about the 5-ft hover ;)

Edited May 12, 2016 by Charly_Owl

[flyer49]

Yes sir Mr. Charley_Owl...you were one of my best students...

[NaCH]

Awesome feedback from the pilots.

 

I love the module and how it flies. Eagerly waiting for the updates on load outs as I think it could be a really good addition to mp environment.

[shagrat]

Congratulation on the very good feedback by the ATAL pilots. I think this module is on a very good track.

 

Did the Gazelle pilots comment on any of the specifc FM issues raised on the forum during the last week? I think there are a couple ones that would warrant a specifc pilot verification. The most curious one is probably the "light on skids" behaviour (raising collective to get weigth off skids, but without actualy getting airborne, it is impossible to stabilize the helicopter withouth either sliding forward or striking your tail on the ground).

Simply try on a FARP landing pad.

Trim 5 clicks aft on the trimmer hat and 1 click right and you can slide here around like a sled, just omit lateral movement.

Edited May 13, 2016 by shagrat

[shagrat]

I have the impression you do not understand what "light on the skids" means. It means pulling enough collective so that not all the helicopter weight rests on the skids, but not so much for the skids to completely separate from the ground.

 

Please watch this video:

 

 

In the first 3 demonstrations I am pulling just enough collective for the helicopter to become light on the skids. Note that the helicopter starts to slide forward, which I counter with considerable aft cyclic. The forward movement cannot be stopped until the helicopter pitches up. A stabilization in this phase is virtually impossible (so far no one has demonstrated it). In the fourth attempt I am pulling more collective to go straight into a fully airborne hover, which is easily done.

5 to 6 clicks aft in the trim hat, 1 click right... and test on the FARP pads, as the ground collision/sticktion is currently a bit bugged.

[Yurgon]

5 to 6 clicks aft in the trim hat, 1 click right... and test on the FARP pads, as the ground collision/sticktion is currently a bit bugged.

 

Tested (1.5 OpenBeta, Instant Action "Improve your piloting skills"), doesn't change a thing for me.

 

Come on guys. Across at least 3 different threads people keep implying that this issue doesn't exist at all, or we're imagining it, or it depends on certain factors, or it doesn't matter because a real pilot wouldn't want to have the chopper light on the skids anyway.

 

I have yet to see a single video of someone managing to get the chopper light on the skids without sliding or tail-bumping.

 

I tried. I really tried to get it to work, but I just can't manage to nail the sweet spot where the chopper is in equilibrium. But even if I managed (which would be like 100 times more difficult than hovering), it would look absolutely nothing like the RL videos that have been posted in different threads.

 

So, please, if someone can show how to do it, by all means enlighten me/us. Otherwise, I'm starting to feel like people just want to waste my time by telling me to test a certain surface or loadout or elevation or map or weight or configuration - yet my observation has always been the same. Besides, there's a dedicated thread, let's not keep clogging up more or less unrelated threads with this very particular FM peculiarity.

[shagrat]

Tested (1.5 OpenBeta, Instant Action "Improve your piloting skills"), doesn't change a thing for me.

 

Come on guys. Across at least 3 different threads people keep implying that this issue doesn't exist at all, or we're imagining it, or it depends on certain factors, or it doesn't matter because a real pilot wouldn't want to have the chopper light on the skids anyway.

 

I have yet to see a single video of someone managing to get the chopper light on the skids without sliding or tail-bumping.

 

I tried. I really tried to get it to work, but I just can't manage to nail the sweet spot where the chopper is in equilibrium. But even if I managed (which would be like 100 times more difficult than hovering), it would look absolutely nothing like the RL videos that have been posted in different threads.

 

So, please, if someone can show how to do it, by all means enlighten me/us. Otherwise, I'm starting to feel like people just want to waste my time by telling me to test a certain surface or loadout or elevation or map or weight or configuration - yet my observation has always been the same. Besides, there's a dedicated thread, let's not keep clogging up more or less unrelated threads with this very particular FM peculiarity.

Yesterday I had some hours of flying the Gazelle in 2.0.2 starting on a FARP pad, with a little wind.

Multiple Take offs with making her "light" (the point where she can be turned on the skids with a bit of pedals, but won't take off).

Multiple landings and deliberately sliding here in center position after touch down.

On take off, just before you lift you need to just pull back a tiny little bit, to counter the nose dip, then release to center and have her relatively stable.

 

Only thing I can't prevent, is the little drift to the left from the fenestron...

 

I can't guarantee to get this perfect everytime, but 8 out of 10.

 

That is of course with SAS, Gyro aligned, etc.

As per the manual I do not use the electric brake trim at all, but the trim hat, as I have no force feedback stick.

 

Didn't test yet in 1.5.3 Caucasus.

[Yurgon]

Multiple Take offs with making her "light" (the point where she can be turned on the skids with a bit of pedals, but won't take off).

 

Tested (2.0 OpenAlpha, Instant Action "Improve your piloting skills"), doesn't change a thing for me -- as before.

 

Can you share the mission here? Or create a simple one that shows this exact behavior for you? "FARP" and "2.0.2" isn't exactly a recipe to recreate the exact circumstances. :music_whistling:

 

Actually, this issue and the constant "where's the problem, I can do it just fine" (not just from you) prompts the question whether it would make sense if you come by my place or I come by yours and we try to figure this out first hand. I'm sorta tired of writing about it over and over and over and over and over again.

 

Let's SMS, I think I'm in your neck of the woods tomorrow (as in: later today :music_whistling:) around 5 PM anyway, if that's okay for you. ;)

 

Edit: PM sent

Edited May 13, 2016 by Yurgon

[msalama]

on the back of its skids to lift off gently

Hmmm... it indeed is hard, if not impossible, to go light on the skids without striking your tail or letting the chopper slide forward. Not very plausible, I agree, but other than that the FM feels pretty good to me at least. Let's wait for the inevitable patch then ;)

[MBot]

From the other thread:

 

 

Rotor tilted backwards, helicopter sliding forward. This is clearly a bug, it should be obvious to anyone by now.

Edited May 13, 2016 by MBot

[Mt5_Roie]

Lets keep it in the bug report thread then. Still awaiting confirmation from our pilots about the actual skid behavior.

 

From the other thread:

 

 

Rotor tilted backwards, helicopter sliding forward. This is clearly a bug, it should be obvious to anyone by now.