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AIM-7M Sparrow performance


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IRL I think that later versions of the F-4 Phantom might be closer match for the russian fighters in BVR. Luftwaffe held bunch of traings with F-4F vs MiG-29.

 

MiG-29A is a sheep compared to the Flanker. The only Fulcrums worse than a MiG-29A were 5 poorly maintained Iraqi MiGs that were shot down by F-15s, apparently they didn't even have a reliable RWR system.

 

About 80-90% of the F-15 kill record is made up of MiG-21s, hardly the stuff of Flaming Cliffs.

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IRL I think that later versions of the F-4 Phantom might be closer match for the russian fighters in BVR. Luftwaffe held bunch of traings with F-4F vs MiG-29.

 

Well by the time the Luftwaffe started to operate the MiG-29, their F-4s had been upgraded with APG-65 radars and AMRAAMs.

 

As far as training is concerned - they may have pitted them against each other at times, but they also experimented using them in combination, where the F-4s acted as "mini-AWACS" for the MiGs - i.e. using the APG-65 radar to find the targets and simply radio the general positions to the MiGs. The idea being that while the N019 radar(MiG-29) was more cumbersome to operate in terms of finding the targets, once located, it could see them at the same range as the APG-65(F-4).

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MiG-29A is a sheep compared to the Flanker.

 

According to Luftwaffe, the N019 radar performed well enough in terms of range(may even have bettered the APG-65 in that respect) - the problem in terms of BVR capability was with other aspects of the radar and the short range of the R-27R missile.

 

The Su-27 has more "gadgets in its toolbox", but its N001 is practically the same radar with a larger dish - better range performance, but mostly using the same weapon(R-27R), so calling the MiG-29 a sheep compared to the Flanker is IMHO an exaggeration.

 

The fact is that the Su-27 hasn't been pinned against modernised versions of western fighters, so we really don't know if it would have faired any better against them than the MiG-29 did.

 

The only Fulcrums worse than a MiG-29A were 5 poorly maintained Iraqi MiGs that were shot down by F-15s, apparently they didn't even have a reliable RWR system.

 

The Iraqi MiGs were of the lower spec MiG-29B export version though - yet fewer gagdets and likely also lacking in the weapon's department - did the Iraqis have R-73 missiles or just R-60s?.


Edited by Seaeagle
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The Iraqi MiGs were of the lower spec MiG-29B export version though - yet fewer gagdets and likely also lacking in the weapon's department - did the Iraqis have R-73 missiles or just R-60s?.

 

The Iraqi Mig-29s were not R-73 Capable.

 

So they only Had R-60s for close in combat.

 

Which pretty much gave the F-15 the Close range advantage when it came to weapons.

 

As the Aim-9M is far superior to the R-60M.

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I mostly fly the MiG-29, this is not a biased discussion of "my favourite plane the F-15C is missing a feature". Im just having a hard time to belive that non-amraam F-15s would take

R-27s to the face all day long.

 

Well, that's a matter of the F-15 pilot either having terrible Situational Awareness or not knowing the aircraft well enough to be able to hit the control bound to "dispense chaff" in a timely manner. Or possibly both.

 

If you know where the missile is and you know where your countermeasures buttons are, then you really shouldn't be taking R-27s or R-27ERs to the face in DCS. At all.

 

You also shouldn't be taking them from above, from below, from the sides or from the rear.

Callsign "Auger". It could mean to predict the future or a tool for boring large holes.

 

I combine the two by predictably boring large holes in the ground with my plane.

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The Iraqi Mig-29s were not R-73 Capable.

 

So they only Had R-60s for close in combat.

 

Yeah thats what I thought.

 

Which pretty much gave the F-15 the Close range advantage when it came to weapons.

 

As the Aim-9M is far superior to the R-60M.

 

Indeed.

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Not according to to USAF pilot accounts.

 

Fine :huh:

 

They did multiple times.

 

And lost...

 

Okay, they lost, because of this:

 

The Iraqi Mig-29s were not R-73 Capable.

 

So they only Had R-60s for close in combat.

 

Which pretty much gave the F-15 the Close range advantage when it came to weapons.

 

As the Aim-9M is far superior to the R-60M.

 

I would like to add too that the US of A had far superior pilots as well.

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Fine :huh:

 

 

 

Okay, they lost, because of this:

 

 

 

I would like to add too that the US of A had far superior pilots as well.

 

Well they Had Far Superior Training.

 

Especially when it came to Air Combat Training/Tactics.

 

Better Training = Better Pilots.

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I always carry two Sparrows. Love them. And it's a show of force for me to let the other bandit know i was totally in control of the engagement. And my shitty sparrow was good enough for a easy target like **put your name here** Haha :) I use the AIM-120C for the more dangerous situations. :) :)

 

But in all seriousness. I carry it mostly for players that want to dodge AIM-120C's with high alpha maneuvering when it lost a lot of speed. And my second reason is that i don't want to fire a AIM-120C in ongoing dogfight or furball. And it's just challenging off course to fire one at a skilled player and see if it hits before you get downed.

 

But lets all just carry the things we like if some one want to go SPAMRAAM. Why not... deal with it if you are the better pilot you going to defeat him anyway.

Go in close, and when you think you are too close, go in closer.

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MiG-29A is a sheep compared to the Flanker. The only Fulcrums worse than a MiG-29A were 5 poorly maintained Iraqi MiGs that were shot down by F-15s, apparently they didn't even have a reliable RWR system.

 

About 80-90% of the F-15 kill record is made up of MiG-21s, hardly the stuff of Flaming Cliffs.

 

About 28.5 x MiG-21 claims for F-15s.

 

The MiG-29s were fairly new - out of 130 ordered only about 35 had been received from 1987 - but they only had one unit up. This could have been due to some purges and turmoil after GW1.

 

Will know more on the RWR / MiG-29 from the Iraqi side soon.

 

 

 

On at least 7 firing attempts at Iraqi jets the AIM-7M rocket motor didn't even fire - so the one in DCS is perhaps too good :) .

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That's also why it doesn't matter what weapons they were hauling. Is an R-73 a 'huge threat' when you're behind the guys 3-9 line? Probably not.

 

I would like to add too that the US of A had far superior pilots as well.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

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So my conclusion of all this is that the Sparrow is somewhat ok. But MiG-29 and Flanker should probably be more unreliable than they are in DCS. RWRs that aren't thrustworthy, missiles that track even worse than the Aim-7. Glitching systems. Radar that goes apeshit in ecm environment... Would be a cool additions to the MiG-29A :)

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So my conclusion of all this is that the Sparrow is somewhat ok. But MiG-29 and Flanker should probably be more unreliable than they are in DCS.

 

I can't help but read this as "I'm tired of other pilots shooting me down, but rather than put the time and effort into improving myself, I just want to make them do worse"

 

RWRs that aren't thrustworthy,

 

already have it

 

missiles that track even worse than the Aim-7.

 

Already have it.

 

Glitching systems.

 

check.

 

Radar that goes apeshit in ecm environment...

 

check.

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Oh yeah, you're totally right, i totally fly the Eagle just for the AMRAAMs and not the Eagle itself, you've caught on why every flies the Eagle now!! They're just skill-less SPAMRAAM players looking to beat up on the poor skillful Russian players who only have their SARH missiles!

 

Or maybe they just like the Eagle?...

 

The Red side flyers on these forums sometimes...

 

If they´d like the Eagle, there wouldn´t be a massive drop in player count when Armament gets limited.

 

There also wouldn´t be whining threads when they are forced to experience the same bullshit, lag induced missile-goes-stupid crap Flankers have to deal with on a daily basis as soon as you take away their God-missile.

 

SARH missiles are borked and have been for ever, it´s just that Eagle drivers don´t tend to notice.

 

Eagle drivers sometimes...

 

So my conclusion of all this is that the Sparrow is somewhat ok. But MiG-29 and Flanker should probably be more unreliable than they are in DCS. RWRs that aren't thrustworthy, missiles that track even worse than the Aim-7. Glitching systems. Radar that goes apeshit in ecm environment... Would be a cool additions to the MiG-29A :)

 

Like this dude<.<

 

How about we introduce the same shit for the Eagle? Or do you think it´s systems worked perfect 100% of the time?

How about we make your internal jammer fail all the time and melt out your aircraft after a couple minutes of use even when it works correctly?

That´ll be realistic acourding to Pilot reports and maintainence but everyone would flip their shit.

 

Meh...


Edited by Chrinik

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

GCI: "Control to SEAD: Enemy SAM site 190 for 30, cleared to engage"

Striker: "Copy, say Altitude?"

GCI: "....Deck....it´s a SAM site..."

Striker: "Oh...."

Fighter: "Yeah, those pesky russian build, baloon based SAMs."

 

-Red-Lyfe

 

Best way to troll DCS community, make an F-16A, see how dedicated the fans really are :thumbup:

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You can't expect system failures from FC3 :(

wait for the hornet :D

 

Personally, I think an important improvement would be to add a chance of rocket failure for missiles. It would most likely encourage formation fights. Getting significant data could be hard though...

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How about we introduce the same shit for the Eagle? Or do you think it´s systems worked perfect 100% of the time?

How about we make your internal jammer fail all the time and melt out your aircraft after a couple minutes of use even when it works correctly?

That´ll be realistic acourding to Pilot reports and maintainence but everyone would flip their shit.

 

Meh...

 

 

Wow that would be amazing. I think most of us would love this.

Go in close, and when you think you are too close, go in closer.

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You can't expect system failures from FC3 :(

wait for the hornet :D

 

Personally, I think an important improvement would be to add a chance of rocket failure for missiles. It would most likely encourage formation fights. Getting significant data could be hard though...

Failure rate is almost certainly a function of the age of the missile (fuel degrades, etc). I say give the mission designers a slider so they can set reliability for each faction.

 

Coincidentally, one of the failure modes for rocket engines with old, degraded propellant is an explosion. I'd leave that out or make it optional, because nobody wants to press the launch button only to be blown up by their own weapon.

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There also wouldn´t be whining threads when they are forced to experience the same bullshit

Those poor poor REDfor flyers always with the "bullshit", the AMRAAM is totally a god missile and nothing is ever wrong with it... like the flight profiles?... Just the poor ER eating chaff all day. Right.

 

SARH missiles are borked and have been for ever, it´s just that Eagle drivers don´t tend to notice.
We do notice, it's not something we can fix on our own....

 

Eagle drivers sometimes...

FYI, my favorite Eagle times are when using 1980's loadout vs Flanker 1980's loadouts..
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Those poor poor REDfor flyers always with the "bullshit", the AMRAAM is totally a god missile and nothing is ever wrong with it... like the flight profiles?... Just the poor ER eating chaff all day. Right.

 

We do notice, it's not something we can fix on our own....

 

FYI, my favorite Eagle times are when using 1980's loadout vs Flanker 1980's loadouts..

 

 

All missiles flight profiles are borked, making this not an Amraam-only issue.

Active and IR missiles atleast track their targets more reliably during lag issues, when SARH will go stupid immediately.

 

 

My favorite loadouts are also the 80ies loadouts. Relies less on Server or weapon capability but more on Pilot and Aircraft capability. Needs more of that.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

GCI: "Control to SEAD: Enemy SAM site 190 for 30, cleared to engage"

Striker: "Copy, say Altitude?"

GCI: "....Deck....it´s a SAM site..."

Striker: "Oh...."

Fighter: "Yeah, those pesky russian build, baloon based SAMs."

 

-Red-Lyfe

 

Best way to troll DCS community, make an F-16A, see how dedicated the fans really are :thumbup:

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Regarding pilot training and tactics. If Iraq had F-15s and USA had used Mig-29 during the Gulf War... Would the outcome still be the same? No MiG-29 losses in air-air combat? I don't think so, but who knows... ShuRugal, you are missing the point. It's not a discussion about pilot skill, it's a discussion if F-15C with Aim-7M is outperformed by MiG-29 and the Flanker. I would like to see the real life pilot who actually chooses a Flanker or MiG-29 over the F-15 Eagle. In DCS, the Eagle is on even grounds or worse without the amraam, and I don't think it's realistic.

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Regarding pilot training and tactics. If Iraq had F-15s and USA had used Mig-29 during the Gulf War... Would the outcome still be the same? No MiG-29 losses in air-air combat? I don't think so, but who knows... ShuRugal, you are missing the point. It's not a discussion about pilot skill, it's a discussion if F-15C with Aim-7M is outperformed by MiG-29 and the Flanker. I would like to see the real life pilot who actually chooses a Flanker or MiG-29 over the F-15 Eagle. In DCS, the Eagle is on even grounds or worse without the amraam, and I don't think it's realistic.

 

Since we are using the Gulf War as our real world reference to F-15's vs MiG-29's, are you comparing an AIM-7 armed F-15C with an R-27R, R-60 armed MiG-29A, or a MiG-29S with an unrestricted armament (i.e. R-73, R-77, R-27ER/ET)? Because against a MiG-29A armed with R-60's and R-27's I would argue that an AIM-7, AIM-9M armed F-15C is indeed superior in the game.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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I also wonder why you bring Su-27 into this discussion? It had nothing to do with your real life stats from the Gulf War, or has it ever been in engagement with the F-15.

 

You can talk/try to compare MiG-29A for this only... but even then its pointless as hardly anyone flies it in MP.

No longer active in DCS...

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You can talk/try to compare MiG-29A for this only... but even then its pointless as hardly anyone flies it in MP.
I will fly it more often when the PFM comes. When i got the taste of the PFM life, it's hard to go back to SFM playing it all these years.
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