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Examples of sound BVR tactics for M2K


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And when it comes to the Radar the TWS of the mirage is Reliable and can be used in a heavy jamming environment where the Mig-29 tws can not.

 

And its also easy to use especially now when it automatically changes to STT when you press to launch the missile

(so you dont really have to give a lock warning untill you launch your missile which nr1 can take the enemy by surprise the enemy and also might fool them into thinking its an active missile since they had no lock warning prior to the missile warning).

yes, but what's the use ? think of the tactics

we all came to a consensus that it's better to use defensive A-A tactics for Mirage and do everything to engage targets in WVR rather than in BVR

In a heavy jamming environment Mig-29A will still be launching his R-27R first. And even if Mirage manages to evade it, it still won't be able to use CCM modes - because of the jammers. But Mig-29A will. So, main Mirage's surviving tactics that everybody's counting on - it just won't work ...

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The only data that the SPO-15 gives and we don't have with SERVAL or F-15C RWR is emitter up/ down.

 

For the rest, SPO-15 is easily saturated, won't tell you the difference between 2 types of fighters, and azimuth is only accurate on front 180 degrees.

 

The SPO-15 gives you the signal strength for primary threat, and you need to understand what does it mean. And this is where you use your briefing information about expected enemy threats. So you will have very good educated guess that you are facing X amount of Y type of aircrafts or a specific types of SAM systems.

 

When you know that, then you can see from primary threat emission power very good estimation of the range of that aircraft. And if required, you can even use your own radar to do confirmation what type of the aircraft is painting you.

 

Then comes the thing like the 180 degree forward hemisphere that is the critical information, not the rear hemisphere (why the 360 degree SPO updated version didn't come to service so widely) as when primary threat is behind you, you have better change anyways to survive against it. And in final moments against missile, you are doing defensive maneuvers and you will know exactly on what direction missile is coming.

 

And then the aircraft itself is used to find rest of the informations about ranges and positions of different kind emissions, simply by flying the aircraft, so you will easily and quickly find out the ranges by basic information like your altitude, your banking and 30 degree RWR cover, very simple geometry check what is around you.

 

Anyways you don't often even care what are other emissions than the primarily threat and then those that has locked on you. So you can filter quickly the invalid emissions that ain't threat to you. And once you are locked or fired upon, then the primary threat is the only thing that you need to worry about and nothing else, so it is better that you can quickly just glance the information to choose correct maneuvers and tactics.

 

And let not forget that Russian air doctrine heavily utilizes GCI that will keep pilot in very accurate awareness what is around him and what is even enemy pilots going to do before they are doing it. And then with datalink Su-27S and Mig-31 fighters are working together where there is extra eyes and radar further giving data about ranges of targets, guiding launched missiles to their targets after launching platform closer to threats turns and burns and avoids all missiles fired upon it while the enemy is forced for defence without capability to gain any kills by just wasting BVR missiles.

 

This is as well one huge benefit why 2:1 or 3:1 ratio of the fighters is crucial as you have more tactics to exploit than enemy with a aircraft with a same or better technological features.

 

The SPO-15 as is in use, wasn't used because it was "best" they could do (there were even better) or that it would have required to be changed, but because it did all their doctrine and tactics required and did it well even. Now Su-30/35 has digital RWR on displays, and we don't likely know anything what PAK-FA has etc.

 

But one thing that I don't get at all as I haven't found any valid reasons, is that why SPO-15 is positioned bottom right corner of the Su-27? As the time you need to move eyes from it to outside etc, it is difficult. It is as well fairly far away from other panels. Maybe it has something to do for readability in high-G maneuvers by being able to see it better from below but I just don't know.

 

So combining a specific kind RWR with other capabilities and doctrine can make a huge difference to survivability even when SPO-15 looks very simple and "inefficient".

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With western RWR you can estimate signal strength by symbol distance from the center.

 

All the rest is good on paper. Do some Intel before mission and you will have even better SA with western type RWR display.

Good luck to keep a clear picture in the middle of a fight near a border with fighters and SAM on both sides of it :joystick:

 

SPO-15 at the bottom of cockpit panel = bad design. It's as simple as that, no good reason.

 

IRL:

GCI ? Good as long it's not jammed :music_whistling:

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I don't think that an 80's matchup has to be completely even. If the mug has a slight advantage against the mirage, so be it, but it is still not as large of a discrepancy as it would be fighting an f-15 or a Su-27 with ERs.

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IRL:

GCI ? Good as long it's not jammed :music_whistling:

 

Jammed? HAHAHAHAHA. We aren´t talking about little SAM track and guidance Radars here.

 

We are talking this:

http://www.ausairpower.net/PVO-S/P-35M-Bar-Lock-Vestnik-PVO-1.jpg

 

The amount of energy required to jam one of these, let alone a network of them far exceeds anything a plane could emmit for prolonged periods of time.

 

Easier to kill them with Anti-Radiation missiles, which is what the Coalition Air Force in Iraq ACTUALLY did. After a bunch of them where in HARM´s way, the Iraqis simply didn´t bother to turn them on again, rendering the entire system useless.


Edited by Chrinik

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GCI: "Control to SEAD: Enemy SAM site 190 for 30, cleared to engage"

Striker: "Copy, say Altitude?"

GCI: "....Deck....it´s a SAM site..."

Striker: "Oh...."

Fighter: "Yeah, those pesky russian build, baloon based SAMs."

 

-Red-Lyfe

 

Best way to troll DCS community, make an F-16A, see how dedicated the fans really are :thumbup:

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Jammed? HAHAHAHAHA. We aren´t talking about little SAM track and guidance Radars here.

 

We are talking this:

http://www.ausairpower.net/PVO-S/P-35M-Bar-Lock-Vestnik-PVO-1.jpg

 

The amount of energy required to jam one of these, let alone a network of them far exceeds anything a plane could emmit for prolonged periods of time.

 

Easier to kill them with Anti-Radiation missiles, which is what the Coalition Air Force in Iraq ACTUALLY did. After a bunch of them where in HARM´s way, the Iraqis simply didn´t bother to turn them on again, rendering the entire system useless.

 

It is moot to discuss RL capabilities of ECM and ECCM equipment. They don't work that way in DCS.

 

All DCS jammers do is say: "I am jamming".

The radar is the one who decides what to do in the presence of a jammer: create fake contacts and/or make the bandit invisible.

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Here is the best BVR advice I can give you for the M2000C: Don't get in a BVR engagement.

 

We (hopefully) didn't buy this module with ideas of taking down Eagles and Flankers.

 

As with many things in like, pilot skill can make up for a LOT of technical disadvantages, but the technical disparity between the current implementation of the M2000C and the simplistic FC3 aircraft is a huge gulf.

 

I am also a fan of mountain engagements, but even here we M2000C pilots are at a big disadvantage.

 

I absolutely love Russian aircraft, I have probably spent at LEAST 50x more time in Flankers than I have in Eagles (probably even more than that). While the SPO-15 can reveal a surprising amount of information to those who know how to use it well and have enough experience to fill in a lot of the gaps it won't provide, the RWR on the F-15 and the Mirage is way superior.

 

As a software engineer who spends hours painstakingly making user interfaces easier to use, I also have to wonder what the hell the designers of the SPO-15 were thinking.


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It is moot to discuss RL capabilities of ECM and ECCM equipment. They don't work that way in DCS.

 

All DCS jammers do is say: "I am jamming".

The radar is the one who decides what to do in the presence of a jammer: create fake contacts and/or make the bandit invisible.

 

Yes but they also don't jam everything at the same time they are limited by power. It can't just jam many frequencies or multiple emitters.

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With western RWR you can estimate signal strength by symbol distance from the center.

 

Not at all as easy as it is with SPO-15.

SPOPrint.jpg

 

spo.jpg

 

As with that you have in stressful situation just very clear information that how far is the radar emission coming. You see clearly and quickly even in high G-force maneuvers

1) direction 2) strength/timer 3) type.

 

And that is exactly what is the only important thing you need to see when you are flying to get the missile that has highest threat to you, to lose you.

 

A western RWR like in Mirage 2000 just doesn't reveal information at all in same clear manner the data in stressful situations.

 

Ie. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=453086051

 

With Mirage 2000C, the BVR tactics becomes difficult as your RWR doesn't really show what is your primary threat, what are unimportant emitters and quickly tell what is the range and altitude of the missile or aircraft.

 

All the rest is good on paper. Do some Intel before mission and you will have even better SA with western type RWR display.

 

Not just on paper...

 

Good luck to keep a clear picture in the middle of a fight near a border with fighters and SAM on both sides of it :joystick:

 

It is easy, but only if you don't have already a visualized the situation in first place. A SAM site will not suddenly jump from one side of the river to otherside or 20km closer to you, like fighter can do. And when someone has locked to you and launched missile, it is the primary threat to you, and the missile that is closer to you, is higher threat to you than the one that is further. So you need to check the RWR and remember your visualized situation anyways in danger and apply your pre-planned tactics.

 

SPO-15 at the bottom of cockpit panel = bad design. It's as simple as that, no good reason.

 

It can be just a bad design, or not. Just no explanation yet found for it, not even that "There just wasn't space to put it anywhere else" as it is deliberately put there.

 

[/quoteIRL:

GCI ? Good as long it's not jammed :music_whistling:

 

Yes, you can try to jam those. And when they are swapped and moved you have even more harder time to get them destroyed or jammed.

Today that is even more harder, as those radars are even more often on platforms that can be 1) get protected from any kind missiles 2) be get on the move in few seconds if required for distances enough to avoid missiles causing damage (I am not talking about putting radar to full transport condition, but just to get it moved in case of emergency situation without damaging anything).

 

This is one good thing why we don't get modern aircrafts and SAM systems, as the electronic warfare would be so complex that many would not want to fly aircrafts.

Instead we can still play 1vs1 situations and try to get all fit to those limited specific scenarios instead the full doctrine where Mirage 2000C is not facing one enemy that would be blind and deaf, even if it would be Su-27S or F-15C, or Mig-21Bis.

 

But we don't have what we should have. The Combined Arms should really be the combining module, where players could take the GCI operation to their hands, really operate well SAM systems if wanted, and really command a whole defence network accurately and tactically.

 

The Mirage 2000C would hugely benefit from the ground breaking French GCI networking and capabilities to engage the F-15C or Su-27S in BVR, but we don't have those features for anyone. Instead having a person informing you over radio about your environment, we are flying deaf and blind just by trying to use aircraft avionics.

 

So is there good BVR tactics to be used with Mirage 2000C? Yes, but we can't use those as we don't have the features we should have!

 

If flying Co-Op with a few friends where one is GCI by allowing him to be a game master in CA, everything turns totally different when you have GCI talking to you and you have totally different picture of your surroundings and what is happening, even when the GCI doesn't tell you anything about missiles or such "cheating" informations they shouldn't see so easily.

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I don't think you have a realistic view of the constraints of moving GCI radar.

But that talk is irrelevant in DCS World so I won't push further.

 

You like SPO-15 ? Fine for you.

Your LED display is easily saturated. I already know what you told above. You won't convince me of the contrary.

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The SPO-15 gives you the signal strength for primary threat, and you need to understand what does it mean. And this is where you use your briefing information about expected enemy threats. So you will have very good educated guess that you are facing X amount of Y type of aircrafts or a specific types of SAM systems.

 

When you know that, then you can see from primary threat emission power very good estimation of the range of that aircraft. And if required, you can even use your own radar to do confirmation what type of the aircraft is painting you.

 

Not so clever when you have enemy contacts using TWS within 40km while you're locked by a Patriot system or fighter from 100km away flooding your SPO. :smilewink:

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Not so clever when you have enemy contacts using TWS within 40km while you're locked by a Patriot system or fighter from 100km away flooding your SPO. :smilewink:

Doesnt matter as you see where TWS threats are and you are being engaged by patriot that is primarily threat at end of the order.

GCI is already telling you what is happening with other aircrafts and so is your flight leader or wingmans updating about the situation and you see TWS targets with a datalink (that has capability) and your own radar.

 

And you should have started maneuvers already against TWS if launch is likely, but that doesn't offer good lock when you are changing directions so only when a AHR goes bulls and it has acquired you, then that is your primary threat and you get information for those in RWR while patriot is disregarded as it isn't threat anymore.

 

Then you should use tactics, where you choose the place and time when to engage, and you play cat and mouse there.

And then there is one requirement too, that is to take patriot system down and that is own mission for someone else (unless it is yours and you are flying SEAD, but then someone else takes care of TWS...)

 

The problem in DCS is that RADAR, counter-measurements, counter-counter-measurements and almost everything related to RADAR, isn't modeled almost at all.

 

This is what renders so many aircrafts like Mirage 2000C much weaker than should. Correct air tactics can't be used as should.

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I don't think you have a realistic view of the constraints of moving GCI radar.

But that talk is irrelevant in DCS World so I won't push further.

 

You like SPO-15 ? Fine for you.

Your LED display is easily saturated. I already know what you told above. You won't convince me of the contrary.

And how many times have you been even seeing or working for CGI radar moving operations in military? :-)

 

It is fast for emergency situations.

You should already be prepared to do that if required in the moment you are deploying. But that is last resort as you should keep enemy away from destroying those RADARs. Not all can be moved quickly, some requires hours, but those are more special ones.

 

And it isn't irrelevant unless wanted to never get little more realistic air combat in DCS.

As already it is unrealistic that so many ground unit in group starts moving just after one unit is engaged even when not possible.

We have totally unrealistic TWS capabilities, RWR systems ain't working as should, RADAR and counters for it implements are like cruel joke.

 

Why mirage 2000C can't do what it should be able do or be against what others should be able to do. Or it can perform how it shouldn't be able to perform.

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Doesnt matter as you see where TWS threats are and you are being engaged by patriot that is primarily threat at end of the order.

GCI is already telling you what is happening with other aircrafts and so is your flight leader or wingmans updating about the situation and you see TWS targets with a datalink (that has capability) and your own radar.

 

And you should have started maneuvers already against TWS if launch is likely, but that doesn't offer good lock when you are changing directions so only when a AHR goes bulls and it has acquired you, then that is your primary threat and you get information for those in RWR while patriot is disregarded as it isn't threat anymore.

 

Then you should use tactics, where you choose the place and time when to engage, and you play cat and mouse there.

And then there is one requirement too, that is to take patriot system down and that is own mission for someone else (unless it is yours and you are flying SEAD, but then someone else takes care of TWS...)

 

 

You talk tactics but don't take into account enemy has tactics too. Have you considered an enemy flanking your flight from low able to see you on radar but your flight doesn't even know they are their because of drowned out SPO-15 and no DL contact. You can't start defensive maneuvers against something you're unaware of.

You want to take out a Patriot site etc. this needs an escort package and those escorts are going to be the ones having these problems.

A Mirage SERVAL or F-15 TEWS gives far superior SA period.

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You talk tactics but don't take into account enemy has tactics too. Have you considered an enemy flanking your flight from low able to see you on radar but your flight doesn't even know they are their because of drowned out SPO-15 and no DL contact. You can't start defensive maneuvers against something you're unaware of.

You want to take out a Patriot site etc. this needs an escort package and those escorts are going to be the ones having these problems.

A Mirage SERVAL or F-15 TEWS gives far superior SA period.

 

And enemy has tactics against those, that they are unaware and think they are surprising the enemy.

 

This is why combined arms module is important, but we still don't have even basic radars or communication systems simulated or anything that goes beyond single aircraft cockpit simulation or aircraft flight modeling.

 

The enemy cant surprise SPO-15 user any better than western RWR users.

This is one of basic air tactics that you will check your surrounds randomly but periodically, just like in naval combat.

 

The simple fact is, in air war everyone knows where everyone is and question is only, what can you do about it. There isn't stealth, why it is crucial that you have a longer spear than enemy or you have numbers or tactics that you use to force other to back off.

 

And that isn't even simulated in DCS as no one is going to feel their life threatened when they can just spawn again and again. And this would change of spawning would take time off it really would have a sensible drawback, or like having only a 12 aircrafts in whole airfield for a 10 pilots, so you can't just sacrifice any aircraft because it isn't just about points but about capability. That would deny just wasted tryouts in the first place.

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everyone, congratulate me with my first F-15C PvP kill :D

 

there was turmoil with lots of flankers/eagles spamraaming, R-27ET'ing each other, I managed to sneak at low alt, with radar off, ambushed one of maneuvering Eagles, he dodged all my 530's, but bleeded a lot of speed, that's how he got a magic in his arse !

 

however, in another sortie, on a different server with calm environment, I had an encounter with a lone Su-27 fitted with bombs, rockets and R-27ERs. he launched first, I tried to break the lock, putting him on my 9 o'clock, releasing chaffs ... so at some point I thought I had spoofed the R-27ER, and launched my 530D... that's when I've got hit in the nose. Really could be a good chance of defeating the Flanker. Too bad I've turned back at him too soon :(

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Oh me to yesterday ! One in BVR (yes, don't tell me how, he saw me too late my 530 was on the road) and 2 in dogfights !

 

Mirage is love guys

 

Expecting video asap :)

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