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Can the AIM-54 take down fighter aircraft


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I've been scouring the internet for as much info on this as possible, some say that since the missile flies so fast that makes it hard to maneuver and therefore easy to defeat, some say that even at high speeds it still has great maneuvering capabilities and would be very hard to evade. Can anyone shed any light on this?

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The question is not if it can kill fighters but if it can kill fighters trying to evade.

 

Of the the Iranian kills (if not all) were against targets flying straight and level either not knowing the missile was coming or thinking they were safe from it.

 

So a fighter doing its best to evade might be a different matter.

 

And while yes its a fast missile with a lot of thrust over a long duration it is a very heavy missile.

 

So it will most likely not be super maneuverable (atleast not at medium/long ranges) and it aught to burn its speed very fast once the rocket goes cold.

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The question is not if it can kill fighters but if it can kill fighters trying to evade.

 

Of the the Iranian kills (if not all) were against targets flying straight and level either not knowing the missile was coming or thinking they were safe from it.

 

So a fighter doing its best to evade might be a different matter.

 

And while yes its a fast missile with a lot of thrust over a long duration it is a very heavy missile.

 

So it will most likely not be super maneuverable (atleast not at medium/long ranges) and it aught to burn its speed very fast once the rocket goes cold.

 

That's the point. If I'm not mistaken, if the Tomcat launch the AIM-54C in TWS mode, it will be passive(will not alarm the enemy RWR), and the AIM-54 is very, very fast, so I guess that the enemy(Fighter jet or whatever) will not have enough time to react and try to evade the AIM-54.


Edited by Darkbrotherhood7

Mission: "To intercept and destroy aircraft and airborne missiles in all weather conditions in order to establish and maintain air superiority in a designated area. To deliver air-to-ground ordnance on time in any weather condition. And to provide tactical reconaissance imagery" - F-14 Tomcat Roll Call

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I've been scouring the internet for as much info on this as possible, some say that since the missile flies so fast that makes it hard to maneuver and therefore easy to defeat, some say that even at high speeds it still has great maneuvering capabilities and would be very hard to evade. Can anyone shed any light on this?

 

Lots of this has been discussed here in detail: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=165028

So maybe take a look there ;)

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beat me to the 1 million dollar question, as someone said on here before, this is the tomcat's only claim to bvr fighting, and if the phoenix can be fooled easily then the tomcat crew is gonna have to get their hands dirty.

 

Well it also has Aim-7s.

 

And using Aim-54s togethers with Aim-7s might be a solid tactic even if the Aim-54s are not super effective.

 

Since throwing a Aim-54 at a fight will force him to either to evasive or eat a very large missile.

 

And if he goes defensive that gives the F-14 the chance to keep pressing into Aim-7 or Aim-9 range while the enemy is defensive.

 

This aught to be especially effective against Non Aim-120 equipped fighters.

 

I dont think the F-14 will be able to or should rely on the Aim-54 completely against fighters.

 

carry a mixed loadout and use all the weapons together to get the enemy off balance letting you secure the kill.


Edited by mattebubben
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Well it also has Aim-7s.

 

And using Aim-54s togethers with Aim-7s might be a solid tactic even if the Aim-54s are not super effective.

 

Since throwing a Aim-54 at a fight will force him to either to evasive or eat a very large missile.

 

And if he goes defensive that gives the F-14 the chance to keep pressing into Aim-7 or Aim-9 range while the enemy is defensive.

 

This aught to be especially effective against Non Aim-120 equipped fighters.

 

I dont think the F-14 will be able to or should rely on the Aim-54 completely against fighters.

 

carry a mixed loadout and use all the weapons together to get the enemy off balance letting you secure the kill.

 

This is the way I see it, if you fire a pair or even all of them in a timed sequence, there's a higher kill probability, unless he completely hits the mountains, all those missiles are diving in from 80,000 feet, it would be hard trying to notch all those and they don't need to be very close to score any hits because of their large warhead.

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The REALITY is we're a bunch of armchair commandos who think our book research and education validate reality based on the public knowledge available. Most of the time this ignores the human in the loop and gives way too much credibility to (random book) and (random pilot who flies KC-135s but once refueled a tomcat carrying AIM-54s).

Reality was the AIM-54A was tested from and fired in MADDOG mode and fired at a closing target that broke DOWN and HARD (6g) to defeat the missile radar(beam). The missile test was a success because it passed within "lethal distance" of the QF-86 drone. This most likely was done to save the drone, not because the missile didn't fuse properly, and to observe how close the missile could get to a DH on a maneuvering target.

 

Short answer- yes, no problem, your in-game RWR wont give you the time to react, but an effective ground based EW or AWACs should give you enough SA to react to it. Remember it is dropping down from on high- so your forward aimed jamming and RWR doesn't matter. If you have an high end RWR (Western type) It may be slightly more effective depending on your antenna installation and direction. Remember the MiG-23s tactic against the F-15/F-16 was to attack from below or above as the RWR coverage wasn't effective there. When the shots in Iraq missed, it was because of a bad missile install(rockets didn't arm), and a perfect high speed profile flown by a MiG-25 that also dodged multiple AIM-7 and AIM-120 from F-15s. FWIW the missile tracked perfectly, but was ran out of Schlitz due to a high speed beam and run by the MiG-25. This of course from public documents.

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The REALITY is we're a bunch of armchair commandos who think our book research and education validate reality based on the public knowledge available. Most of the time this ignores the human in the loop and gives way too much credibility to (random book) and (random pilot who flies KC-135s but once refueled a tomcat carrying AIM-54s).

Reality was the AIM-54A was tested from and fired in MADDOG mode and fired at a closing target that broke DOWN and HARD (6g) to defeat the missile radar(beam). The missile test was a success because it passed within "lethal distance" of the QF-86 drone. This most likely was done to save the drone, not because the missile didn't fuse properly, and to observe how close the missile could get to a DH on a maneuvering target.

 

Short answer- yes, no problem, your in-game RWR wont give you the time to react, but an effective ground based EW or AWACs should give you enough SA to react to it. Remember it is dropping down from on high- so your forward aimed jamming and RWR doesn't matter. If you have an high end RWR (Western type) It may be slightly more effective depending on your antenna installation and direction. Remember the MiG-23s tactic against the F-15/F-16 was to attack from below or above as the RWR coverage wasn't effective there. When the shots in Iraq missed, it was because of a bad missile install(rockets didn't arm), and a perfect high speed profile flown by a MiG-25 that also dodged multiple AIM-7 and AIM-120 from F-15s. FWIW the missile tracked perfectly, but was ran out of Schlitz due to a high speed beam and run by the MiG-25. This of course from public documents.

 

1+

Perfect post :)

Mission: "To intercept and destroy aircraft and airborne missiles in all weather conditions in order to establish and maintain air superiority in a designated area. To deliver air-to-ground ordnance on time in any weather condition. And to provide tactical reconaissance imagery" - F-14 Tomcat Roll Call

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I've been scouring the internet for as much info on this as possible, some say that since the missile flies so fast that makes it hard to maneuver and therefore easy to defeat, some say that even at high speeds it still has great maneuvering capabilities and would be very hard to evade. Can anyone shed any light on this?

 

Echoing TurkeyDriver's excellent post, I think it depends on how you intend to use the Phoenix. Long-range, lofting shots with the AIM-54 are unlikely to result in kills against maneuvering targets (as would be expected of a missile launched at max or near max range).

 

However, the AIM-54 was designed to address a wide variety of different targets and used different modes and flight plans depending on the use. As mentioned by TurkeyDriver, the AIM-54A was the first A-A missile that was able to hit an drone maneuvering at 6Gs and the ability to hit maneuvering targets was part of it's original design specification (Per RADM Gillcrist in his book.)

 

Per Tomcat crews who served in the 1980s, they had a lot more confidence in the ability of the AIM-54 to hit a target than the Sparrow. This is a nice article by "Bio" Baranek that discusses the Phoenix: http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/this-topgun-instructor-watched-the-f-14-go-from-tomcat-1725012279

 

(It's a long article with the 1980s A-A stuff in the middle).

He also mentions that the AIM-54C arrived "just in time" and was a much better anti-fighter weapon than the AIM-54A (or AIM-7M Sparrow in their mind).

 

According the this source the guidance system from the AIM-54C was plugged into the AMRAMM program. I don't know if that means similar behaviors, but the AIM-54C did have ACM modes and updates to facilitate attacks on maneuvering targets.

 

This image is of an AIM-54C attacking a drone during testing in 1983:

 

AIM-54_Phoenix_destroys_QF-4_drone_1983.jpeg

 

The key take-away is not that the AIM-54C could hit a drone (hard to justify procuring them if it couldn't), but that this is a tail-chase shot against a drone that is pulling Gs in a hard bank (notice the tip-vortices). The US Navy was testing the AIM-54Cs ability to destroy a maneuvering, fighter sized target at close range. It seems that they didn't view the AIM-54C as an "anti-bomber" weapon from what I have read.

 

If you plan to use the AIM-54C (or AIM-54A) at long range for large non-maneuvering targets and closer range for fighter targets (like launch ranges that are 100-140% of what you'd use for an AIM-120C), then you'll probably find it quite useful and effective against a wide variety of targets. Not necessarily as good as the AMRAAM (unlikely overall), but better than the Sparrow or other contemporary options (mid-late 1980s weapons).

 

But it's all just a guess till the LNS Tomcat is out and we'll probably never know how good or bad the AIM-54C would have been against live targets IMHO.

 

-Nick

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Echoing TurkeyDriver's excellent post, I think it depends on how you intend to use the Phoenix. Long-range, lofting shots with the AIM-54 are unlikely to result in kills against maneuvering targets (as would be expected of a missile launched at max or near max range).

 

However, the AIM-54 was designed to address a wide variety of different targets and used different modes and flight plans depending on the use. As mentioned by TurkeyDriver, the AIM-54A was the first A-A missile that was able to hit an drone maneuvering at 6Gs and the ability to hit maneuvering targets was part of it's original design specification (Per RADM Gillcrist in his book.)

 

Per Tomcat crews who served in the 1980s, they had a lot more confidence in the ability of the AIM-54 to hit a target than the Sparrow. This is a nice article by "Bio" Baranek that discusses the Phoenix: http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/this-topgun-instructor-watched-the-f-14-go-from-tomcat-1725012279

 

(It's a long article with the 1980s A-A stuff in the middle).

He also mentions that the AIM-54C arrived "just in time" and was a much better anti-fighter weapon than the AIM-54A (or AIM-7M Sparrow in their mind).

 

According the this source the guidance system from the AIM-54C was plugged into the AMRAMM program. I don't know if that means similar behaviors, but the AIM-54C did have ACM modes and updates to facilitate attacks on maneuvering targets.

 

This image is of an AIM-54C attacking a drone during testing in 1983:

 

AIM-54_Phoenix_destroys_QF-4_drone_1983.jpeg

 

The key take-away is not that the AIM-54C could hit a drone (hard to justify procuring them if it couldn't), but that this is a tail-chase shot against a drone that is pulling Gs in a hard bank (notice the tip-vortices). The US Navy was testing the AIM-54Cs ability to destroy a maneuvering, fighter sized target at close range. It seems that they didn't view the AIM-54C as an "anti-bomber" weapon from what I have read.

 

If you plan to use the AIM-54C (or AIM-54A) at long range for large non-maneuvering targets and closer range for fighter targets (like launch ranges that are 100-140% of what you'd use for an AIM-120C), then you'll probably find it quite useful and effective against a wide variety of targets. Not necessarily as good as the AMRAAM (unlikely overall), but better than the Sparrow or other contemporary options (mid-late 1980s weapons).

 

But it's all just a guess till the LNS Tomcat is out and we'll probably never know how good or bad the AIM-54C would have been against live targets IMHO.

 

-Nick

 

Very nice post, Nick! I'm just gonna complement your post :)

 

Let's not forget that firing the AIM-54 in TWS mode probably would not give enough time to the enemy react.

 

In 1973, the AIM-54 was successfully launched against a BQM-34E Firebee drone at a distance of 110 nautical miles(202km).

1973

June - Hughes completed their testing program with a world record-setting performance; launched from an F-14A over Pt. Mugu, a Phoenix missile was launched against a BQM-34E Firebee drone at a distance of 110 nautical miles. This shattered the previous record of 76 nautical miles, which was achieved during the RDT&E phase. At the time the missile had achieved a 77% success rate, with 43 scored hits out of a total of 56 missiles launched from various aircraft.

 

And the AIM-54C was actually very advanced, as you can see in the pic below:

aim54interno2.jpg

 

Here you can see the image of the TCS filming the AIM-54 hitting a maneuvering target:

aim54seq.jpg

 

 

 

 

The AIM-54 had a kill rate nearly 90% and the AIM-54C(mach 5.0) is faster than the AIM-54A(mach 4.3) as this link shows:

http://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_old_pdf.cfm?ARC_ID=1066

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/aim-54-chronology.htm


Edited by Darkbrotherhood7

Mission: "To intercept and destroy aircraft and airborne missiles in all weather conditions in order to establish and maintain air superiority in a designated area. To deliver air-to-ground ordnance on time in any weather condition. And to provide tactical reconaissance imagery" - F-14 Tomcat Roll Call

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Very nice post, Nick! I'm just gonna complement your post :)

 

Let's not forget that firing the AIM-54 in TWS mode probably would not give enough time to the enemy react.

 

In 1973, the AIM-54 was successfully launched against a BQM-34E Firebee drone at a distance of 110 nautical miles(202km).

 

 

And the AIM-54C was actually very advanced, as you can see in the pic below:

aim54interno2.jpg

 

Here you can see the image of the TCS filming the AIM-54 hitting a maneuvering target:

aim54seq.jpg

 

 

 

 

The AIM-54 had a kill rate nearly 90% and the AIM-54C(mach 5.0) is faster than the AIM-54A(mach 4.3) as this link shows:

http://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_old_pdf.cfm?ARC_ID=1066

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/aim-54-chronology.htm

The 54C and 54A use the same engine part. The only thing that can cause one to be faster than the other is more efficient guidance, and that's assuming that the 54A guidance was somehow inefficient at maintaining speed in the cruise stage.

 

Even then, a mach 5 shot implies a mach 2 launch.

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The 54C and 54A use the same engine part. The only thing that can cause one to be faster than the other is more efficient guidance, and that's assuming that the 54A guidance was somehow inefficient at maintaining speed in the cruise stage.

 

Even then, a mach 5 shot implies a mach 2 launch.

 

Yeah, I also would like to know why the AIM-54C is faster than the AIM-54A.

Mission: "To intercept and destroy aircraft and airborne missiles in all weather conditions in order to establish and maintain air superiority in a designated area. To deliver air-to-ground ordnance on time in any weather condition. And to provide tactical reconaissance imagery" - F-14 Tomcat Roll Call

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This most likely was done to save the drone, not because the missile didn't fuse properly, and to observe how close the missile could get to a DH on a maneuvering target.

 

It was most likely carrying a telemetry package instead of a warhead. Drones are expected to be a casualty of a direct hit occurs.

 

Short answer- yes, no problem, your in-game RWR wont give you the time to react,

 

Why? That seeker comes on over 20km away. Combined closure might be 1km/s in the average case, maybe 1.5km/s. You'd need a mach 5 missile and mach 2 target to do better in most situations.

 

Remember it is dropping down from on high- so your forward aimed jamming and RWR doesn't matter.

 

None of that is correct. The missile had has improvements guidance and ECCM specifically because all of this stuff matters.

 

Remember the MiG-23s tactic against the F-15/F-16 was to attack from below or above as the RWR coverage wasn't effective there.

 

That isn't correct either. The tactics emphasized untargetted entries. The antennas will pick up emitters in all directions, they're just shorter ranged above and below. There are other advantages and tactical reasons to attack from such angles, but ineffective rwrs aren't really one of them.

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Some great info here as always.

 

Besides the whole aspect of the AIM-54's capability to kill a fighter sized target - info from Bio is always great considering he was a F-14 RIO and the Phoenix was a "RIO missile". He is quite admiring of it's capability.

 

Regardless of that, launching an AIM-54 would provoke a response from a threatened target pretty quickly I imagine *if detected* and this may result in the further exposure of the enemy - ie ECM/counter measure use etc.. which would expose the aircraft to other aircraft/weapons/radars out there.

 

I clearly have no idea what F-14 BVR combat doctrine would be :P but I imagine that AIM-54 wouldn't be alone if in Sparrow range or if the F-14 had a friend, and they never flew alone.

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Some great info here as always.

 

Besides the whole aspect of the AIM-54's capability to kill a fighter sized target - info from Bio is always great considering he was a F-14 RIO and the Phoenix was a "RIO missile". He is quite admiring of it's capability.

 

Regardless of that, launching an AIM-54 would provoke a response from a threatened target pretty quickly I imagine *if detected* and this may result in the further exposure of the enemy - ie ECM/counter measure use etc.. which would expose the aircraft to other aircraft/weapons/radars out there.

 

I clearly have no idea what F-14 BVR combat doctrine would be :P but I imagine that AIM-54 wouldn't be alone if in Sparrow range or if the F-14 had a friend, and they never flew alone.

 

The Tomcat friend is the F/A-18C:music_whistling:

Mission: "To intercept and destroy aircraft and airborne missiles in all weather conditions in order to establish and maintain air superiority in a designated area. To deliver air-to-ground ordnance on time in any weather condition. And to provide tactical reconaissance imagery" - F-14 Tomcat Roll Call

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It was most likely carrying a telemetry package instead of a warhead. Drones are expected to be a casualty of a direct hit occurs.

 

 

 

Why? That seeker comes on over 20km away. Combined closure might be 1km/s in the average case, maybe 1.5km/s. You'd need a mach 5 missile and mach 2 target to do better in most situations.

 

 

 

None of that is correct. The missile had has improvements guidance and ECCM specifically because all of this stuff matters.

 

 

 

That isn't correct either. The tactics emphasized untargetted entries. The antennas will pick up emitters in all directions, they're just shorter ranged above and below. There are other advantages and tactical reasons to attack from such angles, but ineffective rwrs aren't really one of them.

 

The seeker comes on at 20km away, 30km ABOVE you at least, its dropping (like AIM-120D and C7) to keep any possible energy for end game. So the "20km" is angular. Do we know for sure that the radar ALWAYs turns on as soon it gets within range? Can the Tomcat tell the missile to hold off if the radar picture determines the target is unaware? Regardless, the effective range really ise ~16km head on due to angular data. If your RWR and jamming is looking up, it will be effective, most 1980s and early 90s RWRs and jammers are NOT AFAIK. They're strongest lobes are out in front and behind with maybe 30 degrees for the strongest signals. Fighter RWRs and Jammers are primarily purposed to detect the fighter threat and allow you to react to it before you're shot at- not primarily made to detect active missiles and provide you the information necessary to defeat it, if you close with the bandit, trusting your RWR to faithfully tell you when to break, you'll be grounded by your skipper if you someone make it back. You should run if you have an F-14 on the radar screen. If you have any data whatsoever real world on how eastern avionics was designed to detect and avert/defeat an AIM-54 shot, please inform me.

 

Of course ECCM and guidance improvements matter, the AIM-54C IS a more effective fighter killer but was not funded primarily so- those improvements are in to make it an effective cruise missile killer and adapt to jammers that had been tuned to defeat the AIM-54A(once the Shah was overthrown in Iran and the tech presumed compromised). In any war scenario unless you were out to meet SU-27/MiG-31, the AIM-54s were meant to be saved for the TU-22/95/16 missile shooters and their Vampyres. The newer tech allowed for better targeting but AFAIK the controls were not modified- same missile rocket, body, and control response.

 

I understand you disagreeing, please don't claim my statements as untrue just because you disagree with how they are written. You can negate all my posts by producing an interview from a pilot who detected an AIM-54 launch against them at range and defeated it because of RWR/Jamming/maneuvering. You will get opinions from pilots who practiced that to defeat it in training.

The problem is its a waste to brief, launch, climb, and turn in just to die from an AIM-54 shot at 40nm. Every one of those guys who "beamed" and applied ECM and the lead instructor said "continue" didn't truly defeat a real AIM-54 shot. This wasn't because they're actions were 100% effective against AIM-54s. It was to allow the training dollar to be maximized.

 

If we are talking a sub angels 15 target that takes evasive action, that big AIM-54 will definitely bleed like crazy if it tries to turn in the thick air down low, but the AIM-54 is still dropping from60-70k as it adjusts for maneuvering through 30k. You don't see it at all, you're doing you're best to translate the 3d picture from your 2d RWR. Most likely you are just dead. Its a completely different weapon to train to defeat from an AIM-7/AIM-120A-C5. You're radar lock is harder to break because you're fighting a pulse lock at close range- you're not gonna beam because its not strict Doppler. If you time it right and remain at corner velocity perhaps you'll run it out of steam. I'd imagine there are few cool cats who could reliably do this.

 

We just don't have the data to claim how effective eastern equipment is at defeating AIM-54. Its all theory, simulated as best we're able to, based on the provided data. But as my wife proves daily by merely analyzing those noises that come out of my mouth- I am mistaken rather often. IF you say you have hard data that proves otherwise, I stand by to be enlightened.

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I don't believe it's enough to cover that difference. Even with NASA's lighter PMHT it barely gets up there.

 

Or reduced weight (higher mass fraction = higher delta-V).

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I don't believe you have provided any form of hard data yourself, nor even useful arm-chair stuff.

 

I suggest that you look for the following:

 

- NASA PMHT profiles (because they're cool)

- Description of what doppler radar is and what it means to 'turn doppler off', because you said some stuff about radar that seemed a little funny

- Missile lofting algorithms, because it's very informative

 

All this stuff is out there and it isn't secret. It's also not paywalled (some stuff is, but I won't go there :) )

 

We just don't have the data to claim how effective eastern equipment is at defeating AIM-54. Its all theory, simulated as best we're able to, based on the provided data. But as my wife proves daily by merely analyzing those noises that come out of my mouth- I am mistaken rather often. IF you say you have hard data that proves otherwise, I stand by to be enlightened.

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I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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