Auto-Hover disengage crashes Helo

[aileron]

Description: If I activate the Auto-hover and then use the number 2 guy to look around with the Vivian system, after about 2 minutes if I then disengage Auto-Hover the helicopter will invert itself violently. Even if I anticipate it and attempt to stop it I cannot stop from crashing, usually on my back. First noticed this in a MP with a friend both of us using Oculus Rift, just got done testing it with myself SP, simple mission, no Oculus and it still does it. Consistently.

DCS Version: 1.5.3.53279 - Beta

Steam: Nope

Map: Caucus

SP/MP: Both

Reproducible: Yes.

Step to Reproduce:

1. Make simple mission with just gazelle. <or use included file>

2. Take off from tarmac and hover above tarmac.

3. Press Q key to initiate auto-hover

4. Press C to climb to a nice altitude to lock up vehicle on airport for testing.

5. BCV Power - On - M

6. IR Power - On - M

7. Mode Knob - Standby - V

8. Turn On TV.

9. Turn On Hot3 Missle Panel (Marche)

-- I do steps 5-9 on ground before initiating hover.

10. Select a HOT3 missile.

11. Check out some targets for about two minutes. Hit E key to align with one target. Doesn't need to be very far off original hover heading.

12. Add small amount of rudder to compensate for auto-hover disengage and disengage auto-hover.

13. Proceed to flip on back and crash.

Screenshot/Video available: http://www.twitch.tv/ro4dhog/v/71188263

Track Available: 2 - 3 minutes after initiated hover. Note: all I did to test this was startup chopper and then go directly into a hover from tarmac.

Mission File: Attached Track and Mission file in zip file.

Controllers: Logitech Extreme 3D Pro. Pitch (DZ=16, Curv=15); Roll (DZ=22, Curv=16); Yaw (DZ=42, Curv=15)

OS: Windows 7 Ultimate

RAM: 16 Gig

GPU: i7 4790k 4.0Ghz - Nvidia GTX 970

Mods: All Mods disabled. Exhibits behavior with mods on or off. But just as an FYI. I did have Staraways new DLC Textures, Skullz Genuine Huey sounds, Default Huey Skin Fix the first time I saw this behavior.

Any Additional Information: None.

 

 

ETA: The problem and its solution.

 

The keyboards arrow keys are slaved to the cyclic and you can use those to steer the camera. Which is what I was doing. Instead of the ; , . / keys.

 

BTW: as a side note... the ; , . / keys work much much better.

 

Don't see those keys in the manual (not saying it is or isn't.) Don't know why this is. But I disables those keys for the cyclic (keep myself from doing it) and the problem has gone away.

 

So I was putting the cyclic somewhere out of neutral every time I used the camera with the arrow keys causing the Helo to roll over on to its back. That's rich. LOL.

Gazelle-Crash.zip

Edited June 10, 2016 by aileron

[Mt5_Roie]

When you disengage the auto-hover, where is your stick and pedal at that time? Usually what I do is look at the control indicator and match my rudder and stick to what it has in a hover before a disengage. Because if you disengage with no rudder, then you'll go spinning and crash.

 

Now being a fellow Oculus user myself, I know you can't have the control indicator visible, so this makes it a bit trickier. So before you disengage the auto-hover, make sure you have right rudder (usually about half) and pull the collective a little higher so you'll rise instead of drop.

[Deezle]

Those are massive deadzones....

 

I was flying with someone online that had this problem a couple times but I can say it has never happened to me in all my many hours. I'm guessing your controls aren't in the correct spot before disengaging..

[Devrim]

(Interrupting...)

...Usually what I do is look at the control indicator and match my rudder and stick to what it has in a hover before a disengage...

I do that same as yours, but when disengaging auto-hover, it needs additional rudder (more than what I see at control-indicator) to keep the heli stable. Is that OK?

[Mt5_Roie]

Usually yes. Because what it keeps it at, and what you need to maintain it can change when you disengage. So thats why I usually apply more collective so I don't drop and if I start to yaw left I apply more right rudder. But I never let it get to the point where it goes crazy and I crash.

 

As for deadzones, I had my X52 set it about 5-10 as well since it was an old stick and couldn't center well. But I still managed to get out of auto hover without dying. Just need to put the controls in the right place.

 

(Interrupting...)I do that same as yours, but when disengaging auto-hover, it needs additional rudder (more than what I see at control-indicator) to keep the heli stable. Is that OK?

[aileron]

Step 12 is indicating I have applied right rudder to counter auto-hover's rudder trim.

 

Controls are neutral -minus yaw (rudder) input. If I disengage auto-hover before the two minutes, I will not be thrown on my back. Its only if I wait a bit.

[XCrosser]

Before disengaging auto hover, reset your trim and see if it still gives you the same problem. It could be an issue where the controls are trimmed and whatever your inputs are, make it worse (aside from rudder; which *should* only make you spin not flip)

[Mt5_Roie]

I just flew a 40 minute flight and went into hover about 5 times....I use about half right rudder to get out of it in a steady motion. I have no curves on my setup.

 

Step 12 is indicating I have applied right rudder to counter auto-hover's rudder trim.

 

Controls are neutral -minus yaw (rudder) input. If I disengage auto-hover before the two minutes, I will not be thrown on my back. Its only if I wait a bit.

[aileron]

Here is a twitch of what is happening. I do not have any trim settings set as I just go into a hover and shoot at one vehicle and then disengage auto-hover.

 

Also note, I matched the rudder and stick to the control indicator.

 

 

ETA: This is MP so that my friend could record the incident.

Edited June 8, 2016 by aileron

[aileron]

I just flew a 40 minute flight and went into hover about 5 times....I use about half right rudder to get out of it in a steady motion. I have no curves on my setup.

 

 

Okay tried it without curves. Just reset my pitch, roll and yaw to defaults which zeroed everything out. Helicopter is a little different to fly, but same result, flips on back. This time did as SP. Same place over tarmac.

 

Also just to note; used a tiny bit more than what the indicator indicates rudder is set at.

Edited June 8, 2016 by aileron

[aileron]

Interesting tidbit just tried it again and noticed when I hit the E key (it says slave in the indicator) the system yaws the Helo towards the vivian crosshairs. I can get out without it rolling over if I leave the system on. If I hit E again to stop it and the indicator no longer say's slaved; it rolls violently over.

 

I'll try this a few more times later.

[aileron]

Okay yesterday I managed to save the Helo from rolling over onto its back and landed and checked the controls indicator to see if it had changed. Sure enough it was different as shown below.

 

Checked my stick and no such oddity was found in my joystick per the control panel properties window.

 

 

I will see if I can reset my trim later, but I would like to once again iterate I never touched any type of trim system.

 

That's 2 things I have to try out later tonight if I get to it.

 

a. Slave or no slave impacts recovery (E key; also don't know how to check this state in VR.)

b. Reset Trim before disengaging auto-hover.

[Devrim]

Dear Aileron. Your problem could be solved by buying better HOTAS, not a joystick. Maybe you could fly other helicopter modules with Logitech, but Gazelle.

 

So (that's my opinion), you should stop chasing the problem and make some arrangements on your wallet to get a decent HOTAS.

 

Sincerely. :)

[aileron]

Dear Aileron. Your problem could be solved by buying better HOTAS, not a joystick. Maybe you could fly other helicopter modules with Logitech, but Gazelle.

 

So (that's my opinion), you should stop chasing the problem and make some arrangements on your wallet to get a decent HOTAS.

 

Sincerely. :)

 

I own one of these:

 

Plus pedals... Which I don't have the space for currently, nor do I want to use them.

 

A few years ago I went through three or four joysticks in a year and a half and noticed my buddy had the same joystick for years and years with no complaints. Finally I broke down and bought that same joystick a Logitech 3d Extreme Pro and have not had issues since.

 

The joystick is not creating a lot of noise outside of any joysticks I've played with. Its definitely no where near as bad as the more expensive ones I've thrown out. I'm betting it makes about as much noise as the current warthog HOTAS considering my experience with my Cougar.

 

The reason I had the "dead-zones so high" as one person stated was to make sure I didn't make an input until I got to the spring tension of the stick. I don't want to rest my hand on the stick and have it effect the aircraft.

 

I'm not experiencing any weird joystick behavior in any other game/sim or even in DCS.

 

Thanks but no thanks.

 

I'll keep plugging away because I suspect there is an issue in the code as I find the idea that after two minutes in auto-hover the joystick is inputting an aggressive left roll within .5 seconds after I hit the Q key to be highly unlikely. Intermittent code problems can be an absolute bear to find (yea I've been paid to program) so this might be useful to someone else later if I find a way through and they run into this.

 

If I find out that the stick is inputting the problem.. I'll state that here and buy another Non-HOTAS stick, if there is a workaround I'll also state that here.

[aileron]

FOUND IT!

 

USER ERROR not code, well maybe they don't want flight stick inputs with the camera. Maybe they do and I need to re-RTFM.

 

See first post at the bottom in Red bold fonts.

Edited June 10, 2016 by aileron

[Mt5_Roie]

Glad you solved your problem. But I would also agree that a hotas and pedals would be better suited for the Gazelle. Your talking to a guy who's owned 3 Logitech 3d Pros in his lifetime. The only reason I have to replace them is because the damn can keeps chewing on the cord. I finally keep my latest one in its box until I need it. I mainly use it for testing when I'm not in my cockpit. It's a great joystick overall....I just can't imagine how well you'd be able to fly the Gazelle with it. Maybe I'll try that this weekend and see how I fair.

 

I own one of these:

 

Plus pedals... Which I don't have the space for currently, nor do I want to use them.

 

A few years ago I went through three or four joysticks in a year and a half and noticed my buddy had the same joystick for years and years with no complaints. Finally I broke down and bought that same joystick a Logitech 3d Extreme Pro and have not had issues since.

 

The joystick is not creating a lot of noise outside of any joysticks I've played with. Its definitely no where near as bad as the more expensive ones I've thrown out. I'm betting it makes about as much noise as the current warthog HOTAS considering my experience with my Cougar.

 

The reason I had the "dead-zones so high" as one person stated was to make sure I didn't make an input until I got to the spring tension of the stick. I don't want to rest my hand on the stick and have it effect the aircraft.

 

I'm not experiencing any weird joystick behavior in any other game/sim or even in DCS.

 

Thanks but no thanks.

 

I'll keep plugging away because I suspect there is an issue in the code as I find the idea that after two minutes in auto-hover the joystick is inputting an aggressive left roll within .5 seconds after I hit the Q key to be highly unlikely. Intermittent code problems can be an absolute bear to find (yea I've been paid to program) so this might be useful to someone else later if I find a way through and they run into this.

 

If I find out that the stick is inputting the problem.. I'll state that here and buy another Non-HOTAS stick, if there is a workaround I'll also state that here.

[aileron]

Glad you solved your problem. But I would also agree that a hotas and pedals would be better suited for the Gazelle. Your talking to a guy who's owned 3 Logitech 3d Pros in his lifetime. The only reason I have to replace them is because the damn can keeps chewing on the cord. I finally keep my latest one in its box until I need it. I mainly use it for testing when I'm not in my cockpit. It's a great joystick overall....I just can't imagine how well you'd be able to fly the Gazelle with it. Maybe I'll try that this weekend and see how I fair.

 

 

Thanks for the advice... I think I'll be fine with the stick... if anything I'll get a complicated mouse.

 

The big question for VR has been what needs to be offloaded and how best to do that. VR places so many things in a huge flux while everyone try's to solve the interface problems. To that idea... maybe the hotas will be the real answer.

[anasithera]

Glad you solved your problem. But I would also agree that a hotas and pedals would be better suited for the Gazelle. Your talking to a guy who's owned 3 Logitech 3d Pros in his lifetime. The only reason I have to replace them is because the damn can keeps chewing on the cord. I finally keep my latest one in its box until I need it. I mainly use it for testing when I'm not in my cockpit. It's a great joystick overall....I just can't imagine how well you'd be able to fly the Gazelle with it. Maybe I'll try that this weekend and see how I fair.

 

Xtreme 3D Pro is a trooper. It works just fine.

 

70% Y Saturation on Pitch and Roll, 10 curve on both as well.

 

For yaw twist I use 70% Saturation and 23 curve, and it flies great. Easy to hold steady in a hover though high altitudes can require a LOT of the rudder.

 

It's taken some work to get used to how sensitive the collective is but I can fly nice and smooth. Been about a week now and I'm really getting the hang of NOE and very rapid decelerations in the Gazelle.

 

I would love more buttons on my stick and a better control, and I'm saving up to replace my broken X-52, but this thing is great for the gazelle. Much better than it is for the A-10, and I've done that before as well.