The best Attack Helicopter today

[Hummingbird]

Pretty accurate. I guess a lot depends on range though. Based on your second video firing at 1200m (2:30) vs this first video, I would say the AH-64 has the edge though.

 

 

Well the accuracy at any given moment obviously depends on a lot of things, such as how the helicopter is moving in relation to the target etc. For example when moving straight at the target is when the gun theoretically should be the most accurate (no large corrections in azimuth needed), and that's what we see in your video. We see the same type of accuracy in the first Tiger video at 0:30 min.

 

That having been said the Germans did opt not to install the GIAT cannon on their examples, and that supposedly due to not feeling satisfied with the accuracy of the system because of recoil. In addition to this the Apache has the advantage of mounting the gun closer to the centre of the airframe which is going to provide for a more stabile firing platform when firing at any other angle than straight ahead.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Hummingbird

[Emu]

Well the accuracy at any given moment depends on a lot of things, such as how the helicopter is moving. For example when moving straight at the target is when it theoretically should be the most accurate, and that's what we see in your video. We see the same type of accuracy in the first Tiger video at 0:30 min.

But at much shorter range (<900m). In fact, the engagement at 900m looks similar to the first shots in my video at 1450m. The second firing at 1200m is better.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Emu

[Hummingbird]

But at much shorter range (<900m). In fact, the engagement at 900m looks similar to the first shots in my video at 1450m. The second firing at 1200m is better.

 

Looks about the same to me tbh, also the Apache's spread stays about the same from 1450 to 1100 m it seems.

 

I honestly don't think there's much of a difference between the two, at least not when flying straight at the target. Shooting at targets alongside the heli the Apache might very well be more accurate though, and probably also during longer bursts, and that thanks to the more central position of its gun. The Apache's gun should also generate less recoil due to its lower MV, so all in all I'd agree that the Apache has a slight edge.

[Boberro]

AH-64 IMHO. Top notch avionics, great weaponry - it could carry 16 Anti-Tank missiles.

Hellfires can be fired behind the mountain and guided by someone on it to hit target on the other side. In this time you are hidden.

I doubt there is any choppa which could overpas AH-64 today.

[Emu]

Looks about the same to me tbh, also the Apache's spread stays about the same from 1450 to 1100 m it seems.

 

I honestly don't think there's much of a difference between the two, at least not when flying straight at the target. Shooting at targets alongside the heli the Apache might very well be more accurate though, and probably also during longer bursts, and that thanks to the more central position of its gun. The Apache's gun should also generate less recoil due to its lower MV, so all in all I'd agree that the Apache has a slight edge.

Not according to my eyes. The angle of view probably disguises how much short and long the M781 rounds are going, and the target is bigger. One round lands 2-3 tank-lengths past the target.

 

Both guns use the same 30x113mm round. Only the M791 GIAT 30 variant on the Rafale uses the larger 30x150mm round. So MV is about the same. The different in recoil effect is probably due to both the mount and the fact that the Apache is heavier and therefore less affected by recoil.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIAT_30

Edited June 12, 2016 by Emu

[Emu]

AH-64 IMHO. Top notch avionics, great weaponry - it could carry 16 Anti-Tank missiles.

Hellfires can be fired behind the mountain and guided by someone on it to hit target on the other side. In this time you are hidden.

I doubt there is any choppa which could overpas AH-64 today.

I agree. Now an Apache with Brimstone II, that would be interesting. Could even have a SEAD/DEAD role against smaller SAMs.

[Hummingbird]

Many western helicopters carry the Hellfire missile though, so that alone can't be the deciding factor :)

 

The reason I would choose the Apache would be due to its combination of survivability and firepower. The fact that it carries no less than 1,200 rounds for its M230 chain gun affords it a mighty staying power.

[Hummingbird]

Not according to my eyes. The angle of view probably disguises how much short and long the M781 rounds are going, and the target is bigger. One round lands 2-3 tank-lengths past the target.

 

Well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one, esp. since there are so many videos out there showing wildly varying degrees of accuracy at these ranges.

 

But it doesn't matter because all in all we both agree that the Apache probably is slightly more accurate with its gun, and that for simple reasons such as the placement of the gun & weight of the chopper.

[Emu]

Good point, the chin-mount probably doesn't help either. Too far from CoM.

 

 

Edited June 12, 2016 by Emu

[Hummingbird]

Yeah I think it's the same reason the Cobra isn't as accurate as the Apache, the chin mounted gun just doesn't provide the same stability during firing.

[Emu]

Many western helicopters carry the Hellfire missile though, so that alone can't be the deciding factor :)

 

The reason I would choose the Apache would be due to its combination of survivability and firepower. The fact that it carries no less than 1,200 rounds for its M230 chain gun affords it a mighty staying power.

There's only really the AH-1Z and AH-64 that can carry 16 and only the AH-64D/E have the Longbow radar mast. The WAH-64 version also has folding rotors for naval hangar stowage, as well as the ability to remove some 30mm ammo in exchange for extra internal fuel tanks, it also has 20% more power.

 

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/afghan-field-report-british-wah-64ds-04289/

 

So it may actually be a toss up between the AH-64E and WAH-64, and nationalistic bias would lead me to pick the WAH-64.:) But there are some good reasons too.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Emu

[Hummingbird]

There's only really the AH-1Z and AH-64 that can carry 16 and only the AH-64D/E have the Longbow radar mast. The WAH-64 version also has folding rotors for naval hangar stowage, as well as the ability to remove some 30mm ammo in exchange for extra internal fuel tanks, it also has 20% more power.

 

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/afghan-field-report-british-wah-64ds-04289/

 

So it may actually be a toss up between the AH-64E and WAH-64, and nationalistic bias would lead me to pick the WAH-64.:) But there are some good reasons too.

 

I knew the E variant recieved an uprated engine over the D variant, but I didn't know that the WAH-64 had even more power?

 

Also the US army AH-64D & E apparently both use that extra fuel tank instead of the 1,200 round ammunition container, instead using a 300 round container, which is still decent.

[Emu]

I knew the E variant recieved an uprated engine over the D variant, but I didn't know that the WAH-64 had even more power?

Yeah, the WAH-64 got Rolls_Royce engines, 2,270hp each.

 

[ame]http://web.archive.org/web/20071022014942/http://www.rolls-royce.com/defence_aerospace/downloads/helicopters/rtm322.pdf[/ame]

 

AH-64E engine

 

[ame]http://www.geaviation.com/engines/docs/military/datasheet-T700-701D.pdf[/ame]

Edited June 12, 2016 by Emu

[Flim]

The E model is a beast to say the least... plenty of power!

[Emu]

I think the E has a lot of upgraded avionics too and upgraded blades as well. I was choosing the WAH-64 until I realised the E had an option for fuel tanks in place of ammo too.

 

EDIT: Oh but wait, maybe we can have an E standard WAH-64:

 

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/2015/08/28/uk-apache-upgrade-cleared-state-department-ah64e/71303224/

 

WASHINGTON and LONDON — The US Department of State has cleared a major upgrade of attack helicopters for the UK, potentially worth $3 billion.

 

The remanufacture of 50 UK WAH-64 Mk 1 attack helicopters to AH-64E Apache Guardian helicopters will “allow the United Kingdom greater interoperability with U.S. forces,” according to a notice posted Thursday on the website of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency.

 

The UK Ministry of Defence confirmed in a statement Friday that it has also invited British helicopter manufacturer AgustaWestland to come up with a proposal to undertake work to bring the Apache helicopters up to the -E standard.

 

The assessment phase on the program ends in spring 2016. A decision on how the British government intends to proceed in securing –E standard helicopters is expected in the summer of 2016 after publication of the Strategic Defence and Security review towards the end of this year

Edited June 12, 2016 by Emu

[Bushmanni]

AH-64E T700-GE-701D engines have 1994hp each (Max TO power) which the RTM322 mk250 can deliver continuously. But it seems UK is upgrading their Apaches to AH-64E standard, along with GE engines which seems a bit strange. Maybe it was too costly to develop and maintain an indigenous version of the E-version.

[Hummingbird]

As Emu mentions the E versions also features new rotor blades for extra lift. On top of this the E version is crammed with all the latest avionics, which is one of the reasons that the UK is hoping to get E's before the end of this decade.

 

This video sums it up:

g_lru9On2u4

[Emu]

AH-64E T700-GE-701D engines have 1994hp each (Max TO power) which the RTM322 mk250 can deliver continuously. But it seems UK is upgrading their Apaches to AH-64E standard, along with GE engines which seems a bit strange. Maybe it was too costly to develop and maintain an indigenous version of the E-version.

I think it's because Rolls-Royce sold-on the RTM322 design and apparently there are plans to up the power of the GE design.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Affordable_Turbine_Engine

 

I assume the WAH is keeping the folding blade part of the rotor design though, because it needs that for naval use, or maybe they'll keep some units in non-E state for that.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Emu

[Hummingbird]

Btw here's a question for all you heli experts out there: Does the Apache feature a FBW flight control system that eliminates the need to constantly trim in yaw?

[Hummingbird]

Found this on the flight control system:

[ame]http://uarc.ucsc.edu/flight-control/cifer/papers/AHS_2006_Harding_AH64D_MCLAWS.pdf[/ame]

[COMThing]

Good point, the chin-mount probably doesn't help either. Too far from CoM.

 

 

 

Should also note that part of the reason the Tiger UHT loses the gun is due to the recoil of the 30mm (alternate 20mm guns were considered ineffective due to the lack of range).

Part of that is due to it being very lightweight; apparently when loaded it is still lighter than an empty Apache.

 

Basically, the Tiger attempting sustained fire will not be as accurate as the Apache regardless of whether the GIAT 30 is considered an accurate weapon. When firing in small bursts they might have similar performance, but I would still rate the Apache as a better gun platform.

[Bushmanni]

Btw here's a question for all you heli experts out there: Does the Apache feature a FBW flight control system that eliminates the need to constantly trim in yaw?

 

Apache has quite similar SAS and autopilot system as Ka-50 except it lacks the route mode. The biggest difference is the UI which works more intuitively and doesn't fight the pilot.

 

Like in Ka-50 the Apache has magnetic brake/spring feel trim system and four channel SAS with limited 10% authority that provides rate dampening, command system and hold system. Command system provides uniform aircraft response at all speeds and turn coordination at speeds greater than 40kts while hold system provides attitude, altitude, position and speed holds. Pilot can "fly through" the hold modes in any or all axes. If pilot moves controls away from trimmed position that axis reference is not held until controls are moved back to trimmed position and the system then captures a new reference. If hold mode is disengaged or one of the SAS channels is saturated a tone sounds to alert the pilot.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Bushmanni

[AlphaOneSix]

Apache has a fly-by-wire system for emergencies only, in the event of a "problem" with the direct linkages.

[Fjordmonkey]

Define your criteria of what accounts for being the best, and THEN we can talk about it.

 

Without specifying that, there is no "best". Or worst, for that matter.

[Emu]

Define your criteria of what accounts for being the best, and THEN we can talk about it.

 

Without specifying that, there is no "best". Or worst, for that matter.

Ability to simultaneously engage 16 tanks with ATGMs at once, while only poking your radar mast above cover, then ripple firing 16 missiles and exiting immediately before missiles even hit. Ability to control UAVs and linked to all other battlefield assets. No other helicopter can do it.