[NO ISSUE]The Kurfurst is still unrealistically unstable at the top of a zoom climb

[msalama]

By your logic, it is actually Eagle Dynamics that should produce evidence to support their claim

 

My logic is at least better than yours, since you don't seem to have any. ED produced the plane which you claimed is wrong somehow, so buddy, the burden of proof is on you. Don't you understand how these procedures work, or what is it?

 

PS. I spoke of "due process" before the edit, and while that was perhaps a tad farfetched, anyone with their head screwed on right understands that the burden of proof is on the claimant. So why don't you?

Edited June 15, 2016 by msalama

[NeilWillis]

I have the complete and incontrovertible solution to your problems.

 

You say you don't like the way the 109 handles, but you can fly it perfectly.

 

First solution is to stay within the flight envelope that actually fits with your jaundiced view of what is right and what isn't,

 

Second solution is to just not fly something you don't like.

 

However, to suggest something isn't right without any actual insight into the real aircraft's behaviour on no more than a hunch that "it defies logic" simply won't cut it, and to be frank, unless you can come up with some evidence, you are wasting your time with any further complaint.

 

The flight model could be wrong, but equally, it could also be right, and your impression may be in error, it may not. Are you suggesting that ED base all their research and development on a hunch from a hobbyist?

[jermin]

I think the devs are pretty happy with the FM right now

 

I'm sure they had said something similar to this with Dora before the interview video was released in response to player's complains of the FM. But after the interview video was released, the FM of Dora was changed according the input from Erich Brunotte.

 

I'm sure there is still room to improve the FM of the Kurfurst.

[NineLine]

you can clearly see that the veteran 190D pilot called Erich Brunotte kept complaining about the flight model when he first trying to fly the DCS Dora in front of a screen. Isn't the FM of Dora made by the experienced aeronautical engineer you talked about? Why he failed to make it right?

 

The FM was pre-alpha at this time, it was not only research but Erich's input, among others that helped mould what we have today (I was able to sample the FM before and after Erich's input), same research and communications has brought us what we have for the 109 as well.

[NineLine]

I'm sure they had said something similar to this with Dora before the interview video was released in response to player's complains of the FM. But after the interview video was released, the FM of Dora was changed according the input from Erich Brunotte.

 

I'm sure there is still room to improve the FM of the Kurfurst.

 

You are wrong, the Dora FM was adjusted before you were even able to try it, not after the interview was released.

[otto]

I stopped play Kurfurst 14 months ago because of its awfully unrealistic FM. Today, I fired up the game hoping that my favorite WWII fighter will live up to what it was in real life.

 

Its FM does improve a lot. But its stability at the top of a zoom climb still doesn't feel right. I can stand its strong tendency to pitch up. The its poor stability at the top of a zoom make it very difficult to do BnZ.

 

Look at the video section of me booming.It's possible.

There were some versions where it was unstable at the top of the climb.But 14 months ago(if i remember right that's when it had 31m/s climb[it was rock solid man]) and in today's version i think it's dead stable.Not to mention if i had a warthog amd Crosswind pedals.

Edited June 15, 2016 by otto

[Ala13_ManOWar]

I'm sure they had said something similar to this with Dora before the interview video was released in response to player's complains of the FM. But after the interview video was released, the FM of Dora was changed according the input from Erich Brunotte.

 

I'm sure there is still room to improve the FM of the Kurfurst.

I say again as you don't read me. That Brunotte video was made using a pre-release version, probably it wasn't even an Alpha, just a test. FM changed not because what you call "complains" from Brunotte, au contraire FM was tweaked and developed with those tips from Brunotte and that was the first reason to contact him.

 

 

Of course K4 or any module can have room for improvement, but that doesn't mean you're right about your claim.

 

S!

[jermin]

Of cause the FM of Dora was changed after the video is released. One is the rudder authority which Erich mentioned in the video. The other is the wheel brakes. Before the video was released, the Dora will flip over while applying full brakes, which is incorrect according to Erich's statement.

 

Although I seldom post, I read the forum regularly.

[NineLine]

Of cause the FM of Dora was changed after the video is released. One is the rudder authority which Erich mentioned in the video. The other is the wheel brakes. Before the video was released, the Dora will flip over while applying full brakes, which is incorrect according to Erich's statement.

 

Although I seldom post, I read the forum regularly.

 

No, bug fixes might have been implemented at the time, but the Erich changes were made before sale of the module.

[jermin]

No, bug fixes might have been implemented at the time, but the Erich changes were made before sale of the module.

 

It's weird then. I clearly remember when I practiced flying the Dora when it was released. It did flip over very easily. After a patch, it was fixed.

 

Anyway, I have no difficulty to rein this bird. Let's hope the Normandy map will be out soon.

 

There has been hardly development progress update since the NTTR was released. Does Wag still publish monthly newsletters? I haven't seen one for a looooooooooong time.

[NineLine]

We get newsletters almost every Friday.

[jermin]

We get newsletters almost every Friday.

 

Nearly all of them are sales promotion threads. Are there any progress reports?

[NineLine]

When there is any news, they will be there.

[jermin]

Sure.

 

I don't know why. But I have a bad feeling for the Normandy map.

[NineLine]

Sure.

 

I don't know why. But I have a bad feeling for the Normandy map.

 

Why? Last Stream Wag's did you can see the module icon for Normandy in his version.

[Yo-Yo]

Finally a sensible answer.

 

It's not that it stalls at the top of a zoom climb. It's actually the opposite, it won't stall. With the speed at around 100 km/h IAS at the top of a zoom, its head should naturally drop down without any control input. In the game, however, it will float in the air horizontally for 10+ seconds. You need to pull quite an amount of stick to make its head drop.

 

No plane will hang upside down at 100 km/h IAS for such a long time.

 

Who told you this secret knowledge? First of all, you must not fly 100 kph in the fighter like 109 (or similar) The problem is not only that your plane is far beyond stall - you can fly unloaded but the main problem is that the plane is generally out of control because the engine and prop effects that are catastrophic violent at low speed and high AoA. So, the plane can fly towards the ground at very high negative AoA at your 100 kph, so the nose will seem keeping horizontal posution, or it can finally stall getting high AoA and AoS - any departure you like.

 

The plane, however, is stable even at full fuel load and aft CoG, even at 130-140 kph you must not get at the top, if you use rudder to have the ball centered.

 

So, I do not see any flaw in the fact that the plane shoved in the area of the incredible low IAS is "unstable"... the problem, I think, is localised in the different place...

 

I think that the 109 is much more forgiving than this Kingcobra

 

[jermin]

Why? Last Stream Wag's did you can see the module icon for Normandy in his version.

 

Really? That's really good news.

[Jogui3000]

Ok, so here's the track I think I stalled the plane like 5 times, and I did what I always do 4 out of 5 times.

 

I trust ED FMs since I own pretty much every module they did and I love them.

 

I mastered the K4 by flying it a lot... So you need to practice.

 

Take a look for yourself. I get to a very low speed (particularly in the last stall), than I smoothly for the nose down while still maintaining perfect control. It's hard in the begging but I mastered it, you guys can do it too.

 

EDIT: The last stall was the best example (the one with the lowest speed)

 

Btw, If you watch it inside the cockpit, you'll be able to see that I was still in perfect control, you just have to understand that any harder engine outputs can make a light airplane a very unstable guy to control.

 

With that in mind, you just have to reduce your power when you're about to stall, and remain in control with SLIGHT inputs (the plane is stalling, so it will do most of the job for you)

K4 Stall demonstration.trk

Edited June 15, 2016 by Jogui3000

[Ala13_ManOWar]

I think that the 109 is much more forgiving than this Kingcobra

 

Definitely :shocking: :cry: :cry: .

 

 

S!

[Jogui3000]

Here's a demonstration of ''how'' to handle the K4 in a dogfight (when fighting at low speeds)

 

I say ''how'', because everybody has their way of flying this plane.

 

The reason I love it is because if you want to master it, you have to learn how to Feel it :pilotfly:

 

hope it helps (dunno if you can use the Rctrl+Rshift command in the replays, if you can, I think it's a nice idea to do so)

K4 Stall demonstration in a dogfight.trk

[jermin]

Who told you this secret knowledge? First of all, you must not fly 100 kph in the fighter like 109 (or similar) The problem is not only that your plane is far beyond stall - you can fly unloaded but the main problem is that the plane is generally out of control because the engine and prop effects that are catastrophic violent at low speed and high AoA. So, the plane can fly towards the ground at very high negative AoA at your 100 kph, so the nose will seem keeping horizontal posution, or it can finally stall getting high AoA and AoS - any departure you like.

 

The plane, however, is stable even at full fuel load and aft CoG, even at 130-140 kph you must not get at the top, if you use rudder to have the ball centered.

 

So, I do not see any flaw in the fact that the plane shoved in the area of the incredible low IAS is "unstable"... the problem, I think, is localised in the different place...

 

I think that the 109 is much more forgiving than this Kingcobra

 

 

Thanks for the explanation.

 

However, you can clearly see in the video that the head of the Kingcobra drop down naturally after passing the top of the zoom climb. The Kurfurst in game won't be behave like that, it will fall with its head up like a brick. You have to pull quite an amount of stick to force its head down, which is weird because at that speed, the elevator would have little to none authority.

 

I tried recording a track. But the track replayed differently than how I actually flew.

 

The Kurfurst in game behaves very similarly to the Mosquito in this video:

 

[ame]

[/ame]

 

However, the Kurfurst is much lighter than the Mosquito. And it was doing a shallow climb, not a zoom climb.

Edited June 16, 2016 by jermin

[x39crazy]

Well, the K-4 is no Cobra, or Mosquito for that matter.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

However, you can clearly see in the video that the head of the Kingcobra drop down naturally after passing the top of the zoom climb. The Kurfurst in game won't be behave like that, it will fall with its head up like a brick. You have to pull quite an amount of stick to force its head down, which is weird because at that speed, the elevator would have little to none authority.

Mate to this point I have to say, you're kidding us all, right? "The Kingcobra nose drop naturally", the ****ing thing drops like a leaf into the wind mate, even she falls laterally with a wing first, can't you see that? and you complain about 109 module because "nose has to drop naturally", really? There's nothing natural in an aircraft flying mate, and your pedestrian logic has nothing to do with aircraft behaviour. That's the first rule a pilot has to learn, it's clearly stated in 1940 book "Stick & Rudder", 1940, a while ago, so you better learn first how real aircraft perform before talking about the "natural" aeroplane behaviour.

 

 

The Kurfurst in game behaves very similarly to the Mosquito in this video:

And even worst, here weirdly you see something close to what you say about 109 (I don't see at all, this is a stalled twin engine behaviour, but), so anyway that means it happens IRL indeed. And still you complain?

 

 

S!

[arglmauf]

I don't know how far this is correct, maybe someone with more insight into flight models can clearify/correct: In a plane where you have a very powerful engine behind a comparatively very light plane, could running the engine at high power in the climb to a stall lead to the engine starting to behave a bit like a helicopter where the rest of the plane starts drooping and therefore the whole thing refuses to nose down because it's just being pulled upwards by the engine? I remember reading statements (can't remember the source) that the 109 could almost be hung up by the prop, I wonder if that applies here or whether that is complete nonsense and I better forget it:)

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

To err is human. A man can't be always right, no matter how experienced he/she is. This is a simple truth that even a 3-year-old can understand.

 

 

 

No one knows how that veteran and actual 109 pilot actually talk about the Kurfurst. But from this

, you can clearly see that the veteran 190D pilot called Erich Brunotte kept complaining about the flight model when he first trying to fly the DCS Dora in front of a screen. Isn't the FM of Dora made by the experienced aeronautical engineer you talked about? Why he failed to make it right?

 

 

 

What makes you think that every person that complains the FM of DCS planes does not know how to fly? By that logic, if Eagle Dynamics released the above video without telling you who that old man is, will you ask him to learn to fly?

 

 

 

Wanna have a duel? Although I haven't flown this plane for over a year. I have faith to knock you out of the sky any day. :smilewink:

 

You are Right ! :thumbup:

you can see it on the interview video to Volker Bau coming soon. :)