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Thrustmaster TARGET state… in mid 2016


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Hello everyone,

 

I'll would like to make sure I'm not missing something trivial with the TARGET software…

 

I own a TM Warthog. As you know, the joystick has 19 button and the warthog has 32 buttons (in both case, I'm even not counting hats, etc.)

Without the need of TARGET, both are natively supported by OS (full support on Mac or PC without drivers). So in DCS, any button action is given by the button name, ie. JOY_BTN24

 

And here comes TARGET, this weird —official— software that once a configuration is set, creates a virtual game device, that offers only 32 buttons, one hat, and the axes… Are they kidding? Come on, we're in 2016!

 

I read the TARGET manual and at the very beginning, they are stating that basically, 80% of all configurations would be keystroke based… Are they really trying to tell us it should be a valid reason? For me it's not. Why ever, we could not just want all buttons and hats to keeps their own default behavior while we would enjoy programming lights etc. They are many reasons where being able to access 32+19 "DX" button through TARGET would make sense.

 

I would love someone to tell me that I misunderstood everything, really I would… But whatever powerful this tool could be, I don't think such a behavior with the virtual device buttons limitation has anything powerful. When I see what can be done with an application like ControllerMate with the same TM Warthog, I just turn crazy about TARGET…

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My understanding is that 32 channel * 8 axes is a DirectX limitation for a single device.

 

Actually DirectX supports 128 buttons on a single device just fine. There are two different Direct Input calls for reading joystick button states. One supports 32 while the second supports 128. Apparently Target was written using just the first.

 

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/microsoft.directx_sdk.reference.dijoystate2(v=vs.85).aspx


Edited by cichlidfan

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Looks like your answers confirm what TARGET really is…

Understanding how such big companies can be so awful in software development is beyond me… There are so many wrong things in the concept, UI, etc. of the app, it's really sad :( Specially when we know for how long this tool exist.

 

If only ControllerMate was existing on PC… Do you guys have any recommendation for a software that could be close enough to program a device?

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Unfortunately not. ControllerMate is brilliant piece of software as (from what I understand) it was designed for professional/industrial controllers. But it's OSX only. The closest thing to it in MS world is TARGET. It has many flaws but if you know how to write C/C++ code it is very powerful though limited to Thrustmaster hardware. I've read there are people who managed to use it with some other devices but everything I tried to add support for MFG rudders was somewhere detected and blocked.

There is one more piece of soft, vJoy, which (being opensource) has excellent potential but you need to know your C++ and have a lot of time to customize it beyond what is offered by Universal Joystick Remapper (client app for vJoy). It's still very useful if you have any older sims which allow for only one controller. I use it to play X-Wing Alliance with full HOTAS and rudder setup.

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Hey og_wolf, thanks for the answer.

 

I've no doubt TARGET can be powerful. It's just a shame, in 2016, that it's still require users to learn coding, while a "node" concept UI like ControllerMate is insanely more smarter and accessible to everyone. Last time, I was looking on how to pulse a led on the forum… knowing how damn simple it is with CM… really, it's beyond me. The worst, in the end, is that even considering the power TARGET could have, the created virtual device is still ridiculously limited (32 buttons, one hat, etc.).

 

My idea was to look if it was possible to run two configurations at the same time, one only for the Warthog joystick, and another only for the Warthog throttle. Can we run two instance of an app in Windows? So each one could create a run a virtual device. (Question is, if all of this was possible, will the app be smart enough to create a different name for each virtual device). And BTW, no communication between a device to the other (ie. to set a modifier) would be possible.

 

Anyhow, TARGET could be very nice if (and only if), it was not remapping every single button. Let me explain: In ControllerMate, the app interact with the native button and add it's own layer of information. This means, that if you attach the key G the button 03 for instance, then this button will obviously always trigger G, but if you don't attach anything to a button, it'll keep is native behavior… so JOY_BTN03. In Target however, this is not possible. From my test, if I run a config with button without any action, they will be deactivated.

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TARGET is a waste of your computer resources. I only use it to switch the backlighting off in my TM Warthog.

My rig specs:

Intel Core i7 4770 @3.4Ghz // Corsair 16GB DDR3 // MoBo Asus Z87K // HDD 1TB 7200RPM // eVGA Nvidia GTX 760GT 2GB DDR5 // LG 3D 47" 1920x1080 // Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS // Saitek Combat Pro Pedals // Thrustmaster MFD Cougar pack // PS3 Eye + FTNOIR

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This Njoy32 controller board is no more sold for DIY - VKB say that experience with this market was not good, the board is very powerful an thus a bit complicated, but buyers want only "plug" a potentiometer "and play"...

 

But MFG.Simudza SIMM8rge can be a viable alternative, is compatible with Melexis MLX90333 HALL sensor (used in Warthog) in 3D (as is in Warthog) and 2D - sliding or turning magnets (Crosswind pedal).

 

Is already tested in DCS and allow 128 buttons direct in game GUI - need expansion boards for connect all this buttons - on other flight games, eg. Il-2 CLoD is limited to 32 (as this use the old Direct Input version).

 

This information is in last MFG.Simudza soft manual.


Edited by Sokol1_br
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I can understand using such powerful small piece of hardware when building your own cockpit etc., but I my case, I bough an HOTAS Warthog and MFG Crosswind to get something of good quality out off the box. Buying a new piece of hardware and having to digg into how it's engineered, etc. would exacerbate me :(

 

Guys, I'm not a master of Windows environnement at all, but by reading all your answers, looks like you're (I am too) all stuck expecting —finally— for an incredible controlling software to exist.

This forum have a huge amount of users that could (let's hope) make Ken (ControllerMate developper) consider porting it's app (if technically made possible by Windows).

Why not you folks send him a kind e-mail? I've been quite often in contact with him, it's a very nice guy.

http://www.controllermate.com/support/

 

If you have not yet done it, you should give a look to ControllerMate

Go to Documentation and Examples sections, you'll see how incredibly simple and yet ultra powerful the concept is (I'm not trying to give you fake hope here :doh:)

Don't give a precise look to the compatibility section, it's not up to date (and this would be hard because virtually everything USB HID is compatible). For instance, Warthog are not on the list and yet I can fully control them (but the lights).

 

I'll send Ken an e-mail right now.

 

Take care

 

Could we consider creating a sticked and dedicated poll on this forum to get an idea of the amount of users that would be interested into a real piece of software to control any USB input plugged?


Edited by Tazintosh
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The script editor, certainly not! :)

This, I've no doubt about…

But in 2016, I simply cannot understand why people would need a deep coding knowledge to simply "use" in a sightly enhanced way, a piece of software they bought (not cheap!)

11 years ago, people with CM were already enjoying a rich and smart node based UI to do the same.

 

I don't think it's "normal customer behavior" having to digg into code to enjoy your piece of hardware.

Being all lover of aerial stuff, what we should do is enjoy flying no? And doing so, to me, means being able to program fast my devices, without head ache, because it's visual, playful and makes everything obvious. :pilotfly:

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For the DX stuff I have no idea why we are so limited.

Regarding the ''code'' stuff, it's really not that complicated. The first few times you are gonna be a little confused, but then you will start to discover how powerful and easy it really is.

While for me the GUI makes little sense because it takes too long to do even simple thing that can be written much faster in the editor (or in NP++ for that matter) and you are left with options that doesn't even match the old FOXY GUI.

There is a short manual that is gonna teach you most of what you have to know.

I must add that I'm not a programmer.

So why do you have to learn code to enjoy your product? Well, you don't, you are still free to enjoy it that way it is, but it's an option if you want more, and IMHO it's a very good one.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Win10 64, Asus Maximus VIII Formula, i5 6600K, Geforce 980 GTX Ti, 32 GB Ram, Samsung EVO SSD.

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Do you also prefer to use one more dedicated software (to install, update, hope for no conflicts) for each piece of hardware you could have (Thrustmaster TARGET only for TM devices and so on), whether they are GUI or not, rather that having one unique software to "rule them all"?

 

Quick question: Can I with TARGET, set a modifier key located on another hardware (ie. as basic as my keyboard) and have it available to remap all my Warthog?

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Do you also prefer to use one more dedicated software (to install, update, hope for no conflicts) for each piece of hardware you could have (Thrustmaster TARGET only for TM devices and so on), whether they are GUI or not, rather that having one unique software to "rule them all"?

 

I would of course prefer one piece of software if it did what it was supposed to, but experience tells me that is not gonna happen in a near future.

 

Quick question: Can I with TARGET, set a modifier key located on another hardware (ie. as basic as my keyboard) and have it available to remap all my Warthog?

 

Not what i know of, but you can do that in DCS so no need to.

But it would be more practical to put a modifier on your WH if instead of placing it somewhere else.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Win10 64, Asus Maximus VIII Formula, i5 6600K, Geforce 980 GTX Ti, 32 GB Ram, Samsung EVO SSD.

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Not what i know of, but you can do that in DCS so no need to.

So even DCS is smarter than a dedicated TARGET software, good to know :beer:

 

But it would be more practical to put a modifier on your WH if instead of placing it somewhere else.

This is one opinion :)

A simple Capslock key for example, automatically behaves as a toggle and instantly provides a complete remapping of all Warthog buttons, hats, etc.

 

Thanks for all your inputs Svend, appreciated.

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I haven't had bad experiences with TARGET and I don't think it's that hard to use either. It's just that it couldn't offer me what I wanted: Wrap all my BU0836X input boards along with the TM hardware in one device. I fly DCS and FSX only and I haven't seen the need to use this software as the HOTAS is well supported by these games.

Using the scripting all I could do regarding the HOTAS backlighting was to map the pinky switch on the throttle to dim and power cycle the lights in all the TM devices at the time which is cool but unpractical in my case. I'd like the setting to be permanent without the need to have the script running in the background. I think I'll open my Warthog base and wire those LEDs to my cockpit lighting 12v rail

My rig specs:

Intel Core i7 4770 @3.4Ghz // Corsair 16GB DDR3 // MoBo Asus Z87K // HDD 1TB 7200RPM // eVGA Nvidia GTX 760GT 2GB DDR5 // LG 3D 47" 1920x1080 // Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS // Saitek Combat Pro Pedals // Thrustmaster MFD Cougar pack // PS3 Eye + FTNOIR

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Do you also prefer to use one more dedicated software (to install, update, hope for no conflicts) for each piece of hardware you could have (Thrustmaster TARGET only for TM devices and so on), whether they are GUI or not, rather that having one unique software to "rule them all"?

 

Quick question: Can I with TARGET, set a modifier key located on another hardware (ie. as basic as my keyboard) and have it available to remap all my Warthog?

 

So even DCS is smarter than a dedicated TARGET software, good to know :beer:

 

 

This is one opinion :)

A simple Capslock key for example, automatically behaves as a toggle and instantly provides a complete remapping of all Warthog buttons, hats, etc.

 

Thanks for all your inputs Svend, appreciated.

 

You can just make a button on your WH output capslock if that's what you want, but there are much better ways to make modifiers via TARGET than that.

But anyway, you're welcome.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Win10 64, Asus Maximus VIII Formula, i5 6600K, Geforce 980 GTX Ti, 32 GB Ram, Samsung EVO SSD.

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there's a set of modified ".tmh" files for target that allow you the use of 120 DX buttons (in script only i suppose). You can grab them here : http://www.checksix-forums.com/viewtopic.php?f=283&t=193771

 

direct link to the zip file : http://www.checksix-forums.com/download/file.php?id=36093

 

This way, if you define a DX button under DCS, you can use the same in TARGET ;)


Edited by dimebug
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Hey dimebug — or should I say "bonjour" since looks like we both live in the same country ;)

 

Thanks for this information with is quite interesting.

I did tried it and it's working (except the "Profils" folder fabrice352 is talking about doesn't exist for me). Everything is located into the "scripts" folder of TARGET (which has also a different content).

Anyway, this has worked and when running the script from TARGET and using the device monitor tool, we can clearly see 120 published DX buttons.

I still have to finish analyzing what solution I'll pickup to best program my HOTAS.

 

BTW, from my first tests, note that it's still possible to use TARGET GUI.

Sadly, you cannot for the GUI access or set any DX > 32, so the only requirement is to first create a trigger for all buttons, save and quit, then edit the /Users/myUser/Documents/TARGET Configs/myTARGETConfig.fcf with the DX from 33 to 120 you want for each button. Save, relaunch TARGET, and enjoy. All those "custom" DX will appear on the UI for your programmed button.

Looks like there is no need the manual edit this .fcf while you don't plan to change your DX mapping.

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