How to lock sa 8 with 65D without entering his range ?

[FalconPlot16]

question is simple i never get lock without entering his track range even i cant lock when he is locking to me so mission is aborted what do i missing ?

 

attempted lock range is 7-8 mil

[VAF [136] Striker]

The OSA only has an engagement range of about 6 miles so you can get well within firing range before it can take a shot at you and they're easy to spoof. Keep in mind that with radar systems the tracking range is always greater than the engagement range and they all differ. The tracking range is about 10-12 miles. After you locate the vehicle and have it locked with your TGP, fly straight at it at about 12,000 feet. You will get a good track with the AGM-65D at about 7.7 miles. Fire off as soon as you can and notch him while dropping chaff and then egress from his zone. You'll score a kill every time. Be careful flying into layered defense systems though. The OSA is rarely alone and might be inside the bubble of an Sa-11 or Sa-10 system.

Edited July 6, 2016 by 75th-VFS-Striker

[FalconPlot16]

i placed him alone placed some infantry im engaging sams like that with 25 k altitute now i cant do that because he is up the mountain i must climb more but i a10 cant do that i only lost radar tracking by doing terrain mask ill do what you said one more question. what is osa's lock time ? 20-40 seconds ?

[VAF [136] Striker]

If he's tracking you then he's waiting for you to get inside his launch envelope so he can fire the missile. The lock time is irrelevant since you can be flying at the outside edge of the detection circle and could be in it theoretically forever. The important thing is the threat ranging. When the OSA first appears on your RWR at the outer circle it's at it's maximum detection range. When the symbol enters the inner circle it's within it's firing range. It's a little more complicated than that but RWR is designed to show that when you are within the threat range of any system it will show inside the inner circle. The exceptions are systems like the Big Bird radar (BB). It has a very long range of detection, something like 200 miles so it will show up on the RWR long before the S-300 or Sa-10 can take a shot at 22 miles. But it moves into the inner circle long before the actual threat range. You have to study and know each individual system to know the different symbols. http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=68182

Edited July 6, 2016 by 75th-VFS-Striker

[FalconPlot16]

i know these symbols i think there is only option left killing sa 8 on mountain need use terrain mask give him suprise or taking risk entering his launching range for shoot i think jammer works some times i heard jammer is dont do anything and ineffective. im taking the enemy my 3/9 line activating jammer when he LOCKİNG to me he cuts lock constantly thank you for answer

[VAF [136] Striker]

Glad you've found a solution. The jammer does work quite well but it's effectiveness is diminished the closer you get to a radar system. As you approach the system the energy emitted becomes stronger and will burn through any jamming device. It's useless against anything so short range because the focus of the radar beam is too strong. But if you're 40-50 miles away from a Su-27 it will scramble their radar image.

[FalconPlot16]

is there any way to prevent close jammer ? its closing about 5 seconds when i push jam button its not huge problem but i want to know

[StandingCow]

What I started doing in blueflag is coming in super low (advice from some other A-10C pilots on there)... this way they often don't/can't fire at you and if they do... you can just drive the missile into the ground by nosing down.

[VAF [136] Striker]

is there any way to prevent close jammer ? its closing about 5 seconds when i push jam button its not huge problem but i want to know

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by pushing the jammer button. The CMS system has four positions, standby, manual, semi, automatic. It does nothing in Standby. In manual you can select the type of system to defend against. In Semi it will choose the correct system but you have to dispense the chaff and flares. In automatic it will do both. the jammer is always on when the power switch is set in the up position. It doesn't really help when you're close to SAM threats for the reason I stated in my earlier post. Chaff will work against all radar guided missiles but will not work against Sa-15 Tor or the Sa-19 Tunguska. Both of these systems track you with a limited range radar but the missile is guided by the operator looking through an optical site. Be advised though that the chaff is only effective against the radar guidance system of the missile itself and not the ground based radar tracking system.

Edited July 7, 2016 by 75th-VFS-Striker

[Xavven]

is there any way to prevent close jammer ? its closing about 5 seconds when i push jam button its not huge problem but i want to know

 

ECM automatically shuts off if there are no radar systems locking you up, as there's no benefit to having it running unless you're actively attempting to break lock.

 

If you are currently locked, your ECM will remain on once engaged.

 

 

Chaff will work against all radar guided missiles but will not work against Sa-15 Tor or the Sa-19 Tunguska. Both of these systems track you with a limited range radar but the missile is guided by the operator looking through an optical site. Be advised though that the chaff is only effective against the radar guidance system of the missile itself and not the ground based radar tracking system.

 

Are you sure? I could be wrong but I think chaff has actually helped me to break lock. Also, doesn't the SA-19 fire IR guided missiles?

[VAF [136] Striker]

I'm sorry, I should have stated that the Sa-15 and Sa-19 systems track the aircraft by radar and the missiles are guided by the vehicle via radio. The optical system is a backup. A combination of jammer and chaff may have some effect on the tracking radar but I just don't know about that or how it's modeled in DCS World. I've tried dispensing chaff in the past and haven't noticed any effect. I think it's just a combination of luck and good maneuvering that saved my but on some occasions.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2K22_Tunguska

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_missile_system

[VAF [136] Striker]

Also, doesn't the SA-19 fire IR guided missiles?

Neither system uses any IR missiles. Both the 9M330 for the Tor and the 9M311 for the Tunguska are radio guided with a proximity fuse system.

[Evil.Bonsai]

What I started doing in blueflag is coming in super low (advice from some other A-10C pilots on there)... this way they often don't/can't fire at you and if they do... you can just drive the missile into the ground by nosing down.

 

This can work, sometimes. There was an A10C mission, something about river bunkers (forget actual name) that had a nasty SAM system a few miles north of the river (forget actual system, as well.) Died too many times to count flying that one. What I ended up doing was at start of mission, use TGP to locate that SAM, and then mark it. I then dove to the deck and stayed as low as possible without hitting buldings/trees, and made a beeline for the SAM. When I was close enough I popped up and launched a Mav at it. It still launched at me, but I did get the radar so it couldn't launch any more. Then went back and took out the river bunkers :)

[FalconPlot16]

ECM automatically shuts off if there are no radar systems locking you up, as there's no benefit to having it running unless you're actively attempting to break lock.

 

If you are currently locked, your ECM will remain on once engaged.

 

 

 

 

Are you sure? I could be wrong but I think chaff has actually helped me to break lock. Also, doesn't the SA-19 fire IR guided missiles?

 

if you set cms to auto when you get locked it will dispense chaff like a crazy i think you are right

[Panthir]

Initially locate, mark, hook, make SPI and place MAV over target.

Fly toward max speed, 10-15k, JAM it continiously and apply a 30deg offset when you are arround 13nm (chaff release should help to avoid SA-8 launch).

Maintain offset up to 8nm.

8nm turn hot, attempt MAV lock, launch and leave with a slide turn.

[Boberro]

When I control OSA it is hard to defend myself as lock takes ages, about 40 seconds since you press enter key.

I wish more servers allowed full CA control over all units, I like killing poor GheyTen or choppers :D

[VAF [136] Striker]

When I control OSA it is hard to defend myself as lock takes ages, about 40 seconds since you press enter key....

Have you ever noticed if chaff has any effect on the missile or system performance? IRL it shouldn't have any effect at all since the operator is radio guiding the missile but how it's modeled in DCS World could be different. Also, when you fire the missile you're looking through the optical sight, correct?

[Xavven]

Neither system uses any IR missiles. Both the 9M330 for the Tor and the 9M311 for the Tunguska are radio guided with a proximity fuse system.

 

You're right. I just did some reading and they use command guidance. Good to know!

[Xavven]

Have you ever noticed if chaff has any effect on the missile or system performance? IRL it shouldn't have any effect at all since the operator is radio guiding the missile but how it's modeled in DCS World could be different. Also, when you fire the missile you're looking through the optical sight, correct?

 

Check post #9 on this thread: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=133803

 

Apparently you can decoy a launcher that use SACLOS guidance if you dispense chaff. Not sure how it's modeled in DCS, though.

[Boberro]

Have you ever noticed if chaff has any effect on the missile or system performance? IRL it shouldn't have any effect at all since the operator is radio guiding the missile but how it's modeled in DCS World could be different. Also, when you fire the missile you're looking through the optical sight, correct?

 

Chaffs do affects missile performance. Not once I fired one which was decoyed somewhere.

However it happens mostly in case of older system like OSA, TOR (here harder).

When I fire missile from OSA, TOR I just lock you by pressing enter key. I do not follow your miserable - in few seconds - plane via optical sight (aka "zoom") :D

Sometimes I trolled people by turning stuff on when they were happily flying close to me so they didn't have chance to quit.

Another thing was riding Tunguska and taking cover by high civilian buildings :D Poor GheyTens, Frogfoots couldn't hit :D You just moved out of the corner, fired and hide back.

Edited July 7, 2016 by Boberro

[VAF [136] Striker]

Chaffs do affects missile performance.....

That's not modeled correctly then. In real life the missile is guided by radio command from the vehicle with optical backup so there's no way to defeat with chaff. The only way to beat the system is to stay outside of the firing range envelope. Chaff and jammer might scramble the radar under ideal circumstances but the operator would just switch to the optical system. Either way if you're inside firing range you're dead.

[Eddie]

Check post #9 on this thread: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=133803

 

Apparently you can decoy a launcher that use SACLOS guidance if you dispense chaff. Not sure how it's modeled in DCS, though.

 

You can't in reality (not an optically tracked one at least), or in DCS.

 

The post you reference is about the SA-15 which is Radio Command, not the SA-19 which is SACLOS.

 

Chaff/ECM will of course work against a Radio Comand system such as the SA-15.

[VAF [136] Striker]

Chaff/ECM will of course work against a Radio Comand system such as the SA-15.

Can you please post a link to something that explains this? Everything I've read and heard about the Tor in the past was that it was developed to defeat defensive systems like jamming and chaff. It's in the beginning paragraph of this article. There's also a reference to an article in Russian if anyone can read it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_missile_system

http://dokwar.ru/publ/voenny_vestnik/novosti_vpk/rossijskie_zenitnye_raketnye_kompleksy_tor_na_mezhdunarodnoj_aviacionno_kosmicheskoj_vystavke_aehroshou_chajna_2014/2-1-0-1534

Edited July 7, 2016 by 75th-VFS-Striker

[Eddie]

Can you please post a link to something that explains this? Everything I've read and heard about the Tor in the past was that it was developed to defeat defensive systems like jamming and chaff. It's in the beginning paragraph of this article. There's also a reference to an article in Russian if anyone can read it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_missile_system

http://dokwar.ru/publ/voenny_vestnik/novosti_vpk/rossijskie_zenitnye_raketnye_kompleksy_tor_na_mezhdunarodnoj_aviacionno_kosmicheskoj_vystavke_aehroshou_chajna_2014/2-1-0-1534

 

Every SAM, AAM, Acquisition, and Tracking RADAR is built to "defeat" ECM. Equally every ECM system (be they SPJs, Chaff, towed decoys, aircraft EW systems, or others) is built to defeat the hardware and software those threat systems employ to counter the counter.

 

The electronic battlefield is an endless arms race between threat and defence that is never ending.

 

The SA-15 is indeed resistant to both chaff and other ECM systems, but not invulnerable, especially to modern systems backed up by modern software and threat data. There is a reasons that most Russian system have an optical backup guidance option in addition to their primary RADAR/Radio Command system.

 

In reality there is a lot of aspects of the electronic battlefield not covered in DCS or any other sim. Even something as simple as a chaff corridor used since WWII canremove a modern RADAR based system's ability to engage aircraft protected by that corridor.

 

Have a read: (best public doc I know of on the subject, apart from buying a text book or three).

 

[ame]http://falcon.blu3wolf.com/Docs/Electronic-Warfare-Fundamentals.pdf[/ame]

Edited July 7, 2016 by Eddie

[VAF [136] Striker]

OK, I downloaded it and I'll read it when I have time. I think that what I stated earlier is correct though. If you look at my previous post 2 before this one you'll see that I stated that even if the Tor can be countered with chaff and ecm, the operator just reverts to the optical system so that's basically saying the same thing you did. In my opinion that makes chaff and ecm basically pointless against either the Sa-15 or the Sa-19. And again, you're not jamming the missile because it has no radar guidance of it's own.

 

I don't think it's modeled quite correctly in DCS World or I should say not modeled as thorough as in real life but I could be wrong. ED may have made chaff effective say a percentage of the time to simulate what could happen if the radar operator saw that it's system was being jammed and didn't have enough time to switch to the optical system? I'm just speculating here but I have seen their missiles explode long distances behind me so that would appear to be chaff working on them. But that's impossible because the missile has no ability to track and a proximity fuse so no aircraft equals no explosion or that's what it should be anyhow. The other thought is that the proximity fuse is sensitive enough that if it comes it contact with the chaff it detonates but that would be quite a coincidence I would think.

Edited July 7, 2016 by 75th-VFS-Striker