How to lock sa 8 with 65D without entering his range ?

[Eddie]

...even if the Tor can be countered with chaff and ecm, the operator just reverts to the optical system so that's basically saying the same thing you did. In my opinion that makes chaff and ecm basically pointless against either the Sa-15 or the Sa-19.

 

Yes, however the optical system requires being able to see the target, moving unpredictably at speed, and maintain contact with it through a very small aperture. Significantly less effective than automatic tracking. Not to mention the fact that without range data you can't compute a lead pursuit course and have to rely instead on flying pure pursuit, costing energy and therefore range.

 

You can see this clearly with the SA-19. Being a SACLOS system it flies pure pursuit, and if you have the SA-19 on the beam with any more than 250 knots of ground speed your line of sight rate is too high for the missile to deal with an it'll fly harmlessly behind you. No chaff, no flare, no ECM, no manoeuvring required (try it in DCS yourself).

 

And again, you're not jamming the missile because it has no radar guidance of it's own. I don't think it's modeled quite correctly in DCS World or I should say not modeled as thorough as in real life but I could be wrong.

 

Of course you're not jamming the "missile", you're jamming the tracking system itself. And no, these things are not at all represented in DCS, or any sim. Hint: if you can easily shut off GPS/Voice Comms/Mobile Phone Coverage/You name it with ECM, what makes you think that jamming a guidance radio signal to a missile would be impossible (not saying it's easy though of course).

 

If it doesn't work, we're wasting an awful lot of money and effort on this stuff and a lot of people I work with go to the office everyday for no reason. ;)

Edited July 7, 2016 by Eddie

[VAF [136] Striker]

Good points. I do see what you're saying. I have seen videos of people using the optical system from the sim and it seems that if they lead the target well enough they can usually score a hit. I don't know if the sight in the sim is modeled on the real life optics though. I had another thought though. I would think that they have a couple people at the controls so if the main system is being jammed then the guy looking through the optics can take over pretty quickly. Either way, they are deadly systems and it's best to not get inside their envelope or at least stay right on the outer edge.

[Eddie]

Either way, they are deadly systems and it's best to not get inside their envelope or at least stay right on the outer edge.

 

Absolutely, the most effective countermeasure is always to not give the enemy a chance to fire upon you in the first place. A large element of ECM is designed to do exactly that.

[Xavven]

Cool! Thanks for the info and for clearing up my misconceptions about these systems. I love learning about this stuff. Downloaded the document and will read as well.

[VAF [136] Striker]

Hint: if you can easily shut off GPS/Voice Comms/Mobile Phone Coverage/You name it with ECM, what makes you think that jamming a guidance radio signal to a missile would be impossible (not saying it's easy though of course).

Yeah, I had thought about that point. That's one of the reasons that the US military designed the TOW system to use a wire guidance system. There are ways to overcome jamming though. The radio guidance could be designed to scan through many frequencies and use one or multiple ones that aren't being jammed and change channels to trip up a jamming signal. It's probably pretty easy to do that with modern technology. Just a thought.

[Eddie]

There are ways to overcome jamming though. The radio guidance could be designed to scan through many frequencies and use one or multiple ones that aren't being jammed and change channels to trip up a jamming signal. It's probably pretty easy to do that with modern technology. Just a thought.

 

Oh those systems are absolutely employed heavily in just about every modern communication system and RADAR. But again, the defensive countermeasures are also designed to counter those counters as well.

 

When you start looking at frequency agile systems things do get difficult, but certainly not impossible. It all depends if you know how the system you're trying to counter does its frequency hopping etc., if you do then you can identify/counter it. If you don't you can employ brute force broad spectrum jamming, chaff corridors, and others to help mitigate the threat.

 

No countermeasure is 100% effective, just as no weapon is 100% effective. Nothing is black and white, it's all various shades of grey on an always changing scale.

[VAF [136] Striker]

Understood. Good conversation because it helps everyone understand how these systems work and how they're employed in realistic environments. In the reading I've done on the original Sa-15, it was Russia's answer to all the jamming that was being done in Vietnam with the EA-6B and defeating all of their Sa-2 missile systems. So they designed and built the Tor or Gauntlet in 1975 to not be subject to jamming that the US was using. It's evolved and a lot more advanced nowadays but the one in the sim is based on the one from the late 70's to early 80's or at least that's my understanding.

[Eddie]

Yep. The main thing to remember is that ECM and other countermeasures don't, and aren't intended, to make you invunerable to any given threat or to make a threat system useless, that's impractical. What they are there to do, when combined with relevant tactics, techniques, and procedures, is give you enough time and/or space to get in, employ weapons, and get out.

 

That time could be minutes, it could be seconds. And distance wise it could shrink a SAM WEZ just enough to allow you to slip through a small gap between two systems. This gives you the chance to get in and do your job before the threat operators can take a shot against you.

[BitMaster]

Thank's Eddie for clearing this up as far as civilians are allowed to know it.

 

It's the devil in DCS. Model highly classified systems to an extend that all are pleased...impossible for many of those systems and ideas as we just dont know and will never know what and how they work exactly..as a DCS audience waiting for candy in our game.

 

There must be a level of acceptance that DCS will never go beyond a certain red line and that we must admit to that. The more modern the airframe gets, the less actual data we have to use it. Period !

[FalconPlot16]

i just discovered Force Correlate mode i took out an sa 8 with agm 65 K first time

[eaglecash867]

Fly above 16,400' and you can kill that Osa over and over again. :D

[Xavven]

i just discovered Force Correlate mode i took out an sa 8 with agm 65 K first time

 

Works in DCS but not IRL. Here's a post by Eddie to explain it:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2315372&postcount=27

[FalconPlot16]

Fly above 16,400' and you can kill that Osa over and over again. :D

 

i cant remember well but i was climbed 20000 feet and he shooted i had overweight dodged 1-2 missiled and i got smoked im sure it was sa 8

[Nu-NRG]

the jammer is always on when the power switch is set in the up position.

When jammer switch on CMSP is switched on, power is applied to jammer.

 

Jammer still needs to be activated with CMS switch depressed.

 

Unless CMSP is in AUTO mode.

[eaglecash867]

i cant remember well but i was climbed 20000 feet and he shooted i had overweight dodged 1-2 missiled and i got smoked im sure it was sa 8

 

I've run user-created missions to learn the behaviors and limitations of several of the SAM systems in DCS so far, and if the SA-8 is all by himself, he hasn't been able to shoot at me if I'm above 16,400'. Maybe there's another variable we're missing. Which mission are you flying, FalconPlot16? I can give that a try and see if I get the same result as you're getting.

[FalconPlot16]

i dont use present missions i create them