Chaff not working on Matra 530.

[D4n]

Fix chaff on 530. I dropped like 10 chaff in ~ 3 seconds with my six towards the missile and it STILL hit me (several seconds before impact).

[Ktulu2]

Chaffs attract missiles. If you drop them while being fully cold...well...you attract the missile towards your chaff, which is towards you.

Besides, its a mid 1980s missile, chaffs are not a garanteed evasion like with a sparrow II.

[D4n]

Well Vietnam era Sparrow could also be jammed with chaff right? (IF the vietnamese aircraft even had chaff?!?! lol)

 

But the point is, the chaff should trigger the fuze of the missile on impact but it DIDN'T...

[Ktulu2]

as I said, its has better CCM, unlike the sparrow II (Vietnam). As for prox. fuze, it is a possibility, but the missile would have to guide fully on chaff, which was likely not the case as, as you said, you released them a lot prior to the hit, meaning the missile was too far of the chaff.

[PiedDroit]

Well Vietnam era Sparrow could also be jammed with chaff right? (IF the vietnamese aircraft even had chaff?!?! lol)

 

But the point is, the chaff should trigger the fuze of the missile on impact but it DIDN'T...

Chaff won't trigger the proximity fuse of the missile, it's not solid or even dense enough for that.

Chaff will only create a big radar return.

Once the missile got through the chaff cloud it will acquire the next big thing - which is your ship, if you continued flying straight. That's why you want to turn after dropping chaffs.

Edited July 18, 2016 by PiedDroit

[D4n]

Pied how would you know whether the 530 could RE-acquire a NEW target after having passed the first target? Do you know the missile designer personally? :)

 

And Ktulu, are you sure in DCS chaff will more likely work when deploying. Just before missile is about to hit? I'm wondering, never noticed a difference so far (didn't test it)

[Ktulu2]

If you deploy it too early, the missile will re-aquire you. Chaff only work for a split second. There's no ''new target'' The missile just sees 2 targets, the chaff being the most bright one and goes for it. A few seconds after, the aluminium mix has dispersed too much and the aircraft is again the new brightest spot and the missile re-aquires it.

[baltic_dragon]

Being a complete ignorant on missile issues, I still wonder whether these arguments are valid for S530 which is not a fire & forget missile, but is guided towards the target by the aircraft radar. That would mean that in order to fool the missile, you first need to fool the radar onboard the M-2000C, and here the efficiency of chaff would be rather questionable. The best way to acoid being hit is to break the lock.

 

The point is S530 would not see chaff as a more juicy target, as it is guided by the radar beam from the firing aircraft, and as long as that radar is painting your plane, it will just keep going towards it. Or am I wrong here?

[gabuzomeu]

HI, Baltic

The aircraft radar is used to illuminate target (and the rest, incl chaff). It does not carry or send information to the missile.

The missile is just watching in front and tracks the most intense radar reflection at any moment, be it chaff or target.

[Ktulu2]

No,

1-Fire and forget missiles are harder to spoof than SARH (at least ARH)

 

2-Chaff work on plane radar, but its very rare AND if the radar is at, let's say 5NM, a 20' error doesn't matter, past that order of magnitude, chaffs will be to dispersed to have an effect. This can be demonstrated by a F-18 vs F-18 training BFM video that was around [

]. Also, I would tend to say that the F-18 has a better radar, but can't truly support that.

 

3-You do not need to spoof the plane's radar, you need to mistake the missile's receiving radar (which is much smaller and thus much less powerfull/easier to mistake) Unless you have data-link (which isn't in game) trolling the missile is the only thing that matters here, and it's fairly easy on SARH (though not automatic after 1-chaff)

I say SARH are easier to spoof because, not only ARH are newer so have better systems, but on top they have their own radar that you have to fool on top of that aircraft's, which is less likely, as both radar won't be looking at you from the same angle.

[jojo]

Fix chaff on 530. I dropped like 10 chaff in ~ 3 seconds with my six towards the missile and it STILL hit me (several seconds before impact).

 

Chaffs work sometimes. But you need to turn before releasing chaffs, so if the missile is attracted it turns away from you. But it's not 100% effective, because DCS World seems to have statistic approach of chaff effectiveness.

 

I don't think Razbam has any control on the way the proximity fuse works. It's probably standard to DCS World.

 

I watched numerous fights with TacView, and you can clearly see when a missile turns for Chaffs.

It goes straight through one. And I never saw any missile detonate on it, neither Super 530D nor R-27R/ ER.

If you read DCS track and follow the missile you can see it hesitating from left to right before turning away when it's spoofed.

[D4n]

If you deploy it too early, the missile will re-aquire you. Chaff only work for a split second. There's no ''new target'' The missile just sees 2 targets, the chaff being the most bright one and goes for it. A few seconds after, the aluminium mix has dispersed too much and the aircraft is again the new brightest spot and the missile re-aquires it.

 

Then why does it seem that R-27R/ER in DCS do NOT re-acquire target after chaff??

 

Also, we don't know for certain that this missile is capable of changing target (or the M2000, telling the missile)...

[Ktulu2]

1-It does, go in tacview on a sortie and you will see R-27XR pulling onto the chaff, than unloading and going back into the other direction.

 

2-As I said, there's no ''changing target'' SARH guidance is simple : Find the brightest thigny in the frequency of the plane's radar, than go boom on it! That's why chaffs are effective and why as soon as the chaff is too dispersed, it isn't reflecting enough radiation and the missile goes back to the new brightest thing, the aircraft. SARH can also change TRUE targets : remember flood mode? The plane's radar lights up a big aera, and the missile does the same : go onto the brightest object. If that bright object changes, well the missile's going onto a new target. Same thing as if you were to loose lock and get it back whilst guiding a missile or if you locked a new plane that still is in firing envelope.