A question about the future of air combat..

[Jason76]

Given the technological disparity between the United States and the rest of the world, and the nature of our relations with other countires and diplomacy, along with the technological advances in long range weaponry, I was just wondering.. do any of you think that there will ever be another dogfight in the skies again? If so, perhaps you can provide an imaginary scenario as well?

[Esac_mirmidon]

Not very far away, someone in the USAF, with the emerging of air to air missiles saids that the cannon was yet a no needed weapon and all future fighters don´t use it anymore.

 

When the war in Vietnam increased and this affirmation probes wrong, the F-4E ( and others ) born. WITH GUNS

 

You need a scenario? POSITIVE VISUAL IDENTIFICATION OF THE TARGET by ROE´s

 

In this scenario it´s more than possible to run into a Close Air Combat.

 

IMHO

[Pilotasso]

Not very far away, someone in the USAF, with the emerging of air to air missiles saids that the cannon was yet a no needed weapon and all future fighters don´t use it anymore.

 

When the war in Vietnam increased and this affirmation probes wrong, the F-4E ( and others ) born. WITH GUNS

 

You need a scenario? POSITIVE VISUAL IDENTIFICATION OF THE TARGET by ROE´s

 

In this scenario it´s more than possible to run into a Close Air Combat.

 

IMHO

 

Stealth will tend to draw fighters close again and this gun obsolescence thing will be yet another iteration of the same old doctrinal mistake.

[Jason76]

Alright I am familiar with the mistakes of Viet Nam (consider the missiles during that era with missiles today), however... at some point technology can make ANYTHING obsolete..

 

We don't use telegraphs anymore.. the telephone replaced that. I just don't see an F-22 or JSF encountering anymore trouble than a push of a button can solve. Another example, sure it's possible that there is a power outage, or there is a solar eclipse, or you are stranded on a desert island, or you have been teleported back in time.... but I do not see the need to use ink and a feather to write again.. I dunno maybe it's just me, or maybe the pen and pencils have made that obsolete.

 

Now if you can give me a REALISTIC scenario where modern aircraft of two opposing nations of equal mitary power will ever see a dogfight again.. then I'm all ears...

[Jason76]

Stealth will tend to draw fighters close again and this gun obsolescence thing will be yet another iteration of the same old doctrinal mistake.

 

 

Yeah.. and American aircraft notwithstanding, name a stealth plane?

[GGTharos]

A realistic scenario? Cases where large alpha strikes and aircraft getting out of position will necessitate VID of said aircraft. It happened in gulf war, it happened in Kosovo, it will happen again.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Like Darth Vader said

 

" Don´t be dazzled with this technology terror that you had build, the power of this battle station is insignificant compared with the power of the force "

 

The best,most advanced technology never could substitute Human Factor, ROE´s, VID, Caos over the battlefield, Coalitions fighting at the same time using different equipment, surprise, bad wheather, huge ECM envoriment, etc.

 

I don´t want a war to prove it but i bet the F-22, F35, etc someday, somewhere in the future would need to fight a close combat.

 

Do you Know AIM-9X? Is this a usefull missile? Why USA are developing best short range missiles like this or like R73M2 in Russia, if the close combat are dead ?

[Guest IguanaKing]

 

Do you Know AIM-9X? Is this a usefull missile? Why USA are developing best short range missiles like this or like R73M2 in Russia, if the close combat are dead ?

 

It should be a useful missile, but, so far, I don't think any have been tested in combat. Close combat is definitely a possibility, which the Raptor takes into account. It is still going to be equipped with an M61A2 and two AIM-9s. Also, the vectored thrust is an indicator that it had a close fight envisioned when it was designed. ROE will definitely make that happen fairly frequently.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

A cannon round (unguided projectile) is the only weapon on any aircraft that can not be jammed. So dog fight will never be outdated. It will be rare but it will happen again.

[Martillo1]

Why armies still use the bayonet? That is one answer. Another comes from FPS: use the right weapon against the enemy.

 

Maybe the cannon is a last resource, but I feel better knowing I can use it if I need it.

[britgliderpilot]

A quote that is rolled out often but heeded far too little:

 

It is better to have something and not need it, than not have something when you need it

 

 

I don't believe that modern technology - in any of it's forms - will ever completely remove the need for close combat.

 

Taking the gun out of the British Typhoon to save money is, IMO, a foolish mistake - I guess only time will tell how that turns out.

 

In the end, though, the aircraft was designed for a gun. The space is still there for it (currently filled with concrete ballast), I presume it hasn't been removed from the weapons computer, and it should be possible to obtain the weapons if someone in a position of power decides it's a good idea. So it's not as bad as it could have been ;)

[zare]

Missile is an complex and expensive system. Imagine a war, where one region gets cutted of from it's supplies. You have 10 Archers, you fire 10 Archers, you have no more Archers until you get them from suppliers. And the lines are cut.

 

If you have a gun, an local metallurgy factory could make replacement shells. Gun is crude, but efficient at it's field-of-usage.

 

I wouldn't be so enthusiastic if i flew an only-gun fighter against something with Sidewinders, but at-least you have weapon at your disposal. And the gun doesn't take much place, it's production is cheap, so i don't see a real reason of ditching it outta of aircraft.

 

It should go with future - when particle or some laser weapons come mainstream - aircraft should employ these also. Gun must be cheap and effective. It's power lies there.

[nscode]

A realistic scenario? Cases where large alpha strikes and aircraft getting out of position will necessitate VID of said aircraft. It happened in gulf war, it happened in Kosovo, it will happen again.

 

Hmmm.. when?

 

A cannon round (unguided projectile) is the only weapon on any aircraft that can not be jammed. So dog fight will never be outdated. It will be rare but it will happen again.

 

And so is an unguided rocket. That's why russians still have fulcrum squads practise using them on bombers with CETKA :) EMP-proof :)

[Camoman]

as a few have said the only unjammable thing is a hunk of lead. anything using electronics as IMO going to be outclassed by a anti-technology (I hope u get my drift with that term) and your back to square one. Whilst all the seekers and radars and such will one day be useless until they invent another, a good ol hunk of metal will always find its target when used in the right hands.

[tflash]

A valid alternative to this is "enhanced visual". That's why Marines preferred the TOW missile over the Hellfire: the TOW is a man-in-the-loop missile steered from the aircraft with a wire link.

 

I guess datalinks and strong "visual aids" like modern CCD, IR and radar will be combined by human guidance.

[GGTharos]

Hmmm.. when?

 

There were reports of certain aircraft becoming 'lost' (an A-6 for example) and had their transpoder off, and to top it all off, they would not answer to AWACS ... so fighters would close in to VID.

 

Also a couple of F-16 intercepted a couple A-10's for VID at some point.

 

 

And so is an unguided rocket. That's why russians still have fulcrum squads practise using them on bombers with CETKA :) EMP-proof :)

 

 

Plus they have a bunch of AG beam-riders... :)

[nscode]

Yes... but they are not emp proof that much :)

[britgliderpilot]

Yes... but they are not emp proof that much :)

 

Isn't one of the simplest defences against visually laid (or even laser-guided) weapons just a smoke screen?

[nscode]

Yes. If you want to protect your aircraft from vikhr attack just set it on fire :)