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Weather Import


Pitot

Weather Import  

64 members have voted

  1. 1. Weather Import

    • Yes
      57
    • No
      7
    • That is a stupid idea.
      1


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I'd like to see live weather import in DCS one day.

It is not hard to gather METAR info around the world, you even have apps for mobile phones for that. So, I am saying that it is not a problem to feed the machine with data. All we need is expanding the weather system so it can read, interpret METAR info and then apply it to the theater.

Now, problem with that - DCS doesn't have all kind of clouds implemented, nor some specific weather conditions.

 

So, it would be good IMO to develop that in paralel:

- Expand weather variations in the game engine.

- While doing that, expand that part of the engine to be able to read METAR data.

 

Topic connection:

There is a thread made today about "What is going on with ATC". While importing METAR data isn't so important - having a wider weather variability "adds more point" to having a live ATC in game.

Don't ask, here's the answer: 95% of my posts are edited because I have OCD.

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Good thread.

As I am the guy who is known for talking about weather half of the time I have to chime in here as well:

 

It would be nice to have proper weather simulation at all.

 

As soon as we have that I fully agree: Importing real weather data just like in one of those civil flight sims with the "X" in the name would be really great to make missions more interesting, both in MP and SP.

 

To some extent this is already possible by scripting, see this thread:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=144855

 

But of course a built-in solution would be better. I'd like to see that one day. It is high in my personal list of things DCSW lacks most.

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Not sure. I just read somewhere yesterday there were some issues.

Anyway, regardless of it working or not this is something that should better be handled in a more official way. :)

 

3Rd party is okay. NOT a community mod, but a real 3rd party product with team dedicated on making and maintaining the module.

Don't ask, here's the answer: 95% of my posts are edited because I have OCD.

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A: Server based plugin

B: Hire 3rd party developer to make it as an integrated feature.

I didn't mean module to buy, I wanted to say "not a unofficial mod, but a serious project done either by ED or by contractor". :)

Don't ask, here's the answer: 95% of my posts are edited because I have OCD.

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I've voted no.

 

The reason being is that DCS isn't like FSX/P3D etc, when you're flying right now. DCS missions/campaigns are all scenario based.

 

I don't quite see how having this evening's weather is going to be of use if I'm flying a mission set in early morning in 1944/1945 (WWII birds), or in the general cold war/post of late 80's early 90's that DCS has the most units for currently.

 

I'd rather see any weather effort go into improving and expanding the dynamic weather engine that's currently in DCS, as I feel that's going to have a much bigger impact than real-time weather.


Edited by Buzzles
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I agree with Buzzles. We are dealing with historic engagements, and you'll get a far more flexible weather model with far more factors neccessary than just the ones reported in weather reports.

 

A much better idea would be a truly dynamic weather engine, with weather fronts moving through, and an unpredictability that simply isn't feasible with sampling real weather conditions based on available data submitted by weather stations.

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You need truly dynamic weather engine to achieve weather import. So it is going in the same direction. The proposed thing DEMANDS a truly dynamic weather engine so it can be done. I don't see how you managed to separate those two things, really. Weather import would just be addition to truly dynamic weather engine. :doh:

Don't ask, here's the answer: 95% of my posts are edited because I have OCD.

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How do you work that out Pitot? Dynamic weather is weather that is constantly changing due to atmospheric conditions.

 

Imported weather is just the current weather in place at a given time and location.

 

All you need for that is to be able to plug in weather features such as cloud, wind, turbulence, precipitation and air pressure.

 

Where does dynamic weather come into that?

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Where it comes into that is to keep the current weather updated in game while you play. So, first you need a capable dynamic weather engine, then you involve weather import. Not really hard to realize what I am pointing at, unless one has strong desire to disagree...with everything. ;) Sure, it won't be 100% accurate, but still cool. As for sudden changes on refresh: Real weather can be imported with n amount of delay, so that dynamic engine can gradually change tje weather. Not like in some other sims, where it updating weather can give you a massive wind gust because it changed direction IRL and game updazes it without gradation.


Edited by Pitot

Don't ask, here's the answer: 95% of my posts are edited because I have OCD.

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Sooo, basically, you just want a way to import live data into the current dynamic engine as states and only generate the data between them. Fair enough. Seems like a lot of work though for very little gain, although potentially taking an import as the starting state and letting the engine do it's thing for the rest of the mission isn't a bad idea, although a simple randomizer of the current start state would pretty much give you what you want, which is variation in weather.

 

Still don't see the point of it though with reference to my earlier scenario point.

How is real time weather data, bearing in mind as of this post it's midnight on a summer night in 2016, going to help DCS if the mission is set to be early morning in winter of 1944?


Edited by Buzzles
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1. I don't know why most of you is stuck on an idea of having all missions set to dunno when.

2. SIMULATION - the feel of simulation is quite nice when you have weather that's happening just now. I get it that some people aren't so RPG minded, but I am not attacking them, why f*uck up the thread with hanging to one aspect of it?

3. Weather import is secondary gain anyway - the important part is to have weather system that can simulate all available weather elements of the planet Earth (with acceptable exception of tornadoes and similar extreme manifestations). Imagine having to plan your mission in accordance to the fact that there is a hail storm over Gali, you need to divert from it... It really isn't hard to realize how accurate simulation of possible weather can improve tactical aspect of the game. It is also not hard for me to realize that at least half of the players just want it "head on"... But those kind of people should just ignore this thread.

4. When you have weather system that can simulate all available weather elements of the planet Earth then it is a lesser problem to have or not to have, and even to make weather importing mechanics in game. But the main thing is - we need better weather simulation.

5. To be honest, in my personal opinion - current "dynamic weather system" is just a system that allows you to input starting data, and then randomizes over the time passage in the mission. Feels more like a dynamic weather mockup than actual DW engine. Just my 2 cents. Don't be insulted by it.


Edited by Pitot

Don't ask, here's the answer: 95% of my posts are edited because I have OCD.

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How is real time weather data, bearing in mind as of this post it's midnight on a summer night in 2016, going to help DCS if the mission is set to be early morning in winter of 1944?

 

I think you don't understand that the OP is not asking for replacing current weather engine with forced realtime weather. You can fly missions whenever you want with any weather. But those who don't care about these maybe want to fly navigation/training/sightseeing with today's weather.


Edited by GeorgeLKMT
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I understand what the op is getting at, although it's also asking for two seperate things in his later posts.

I'm actually all for the improvement and expansion weather in DCS as a matter of fact.

 

Op wants imports and the weather system to take data as states, then generate the transitions between them. Essentially meaning you'll have to supply a chain of fixed states to it and in order to facilitate actually transitioning to the next state there won't be much scope for randomness.

It's not a dynamic weather system at that point.

 

I'd rather see improvements and expansion to the current system so it can correctly simulate more weather patterns and phenomenon, because by not having any fixed state, the actual weather generation can be made as a reactive system where the weather effects can be emergent, rather than in a directed way to reach the next state.

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It's not a dynamic weather system at that point.

 

But you NEED dynamic weather engine to achieve that. Why are you people so eager to ruin threads on these forums with your naysaying? I am not speaking in ancient mandarin, it is fairly easy to communicate with people, unless you're blinded by wish to ruin conversation.

Don't ask, here's the answer: 95% of my posts are edited because I have OCD.

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But you NEED dynamic weather engine to achieve that. Why are you people so eager to ruin threads on these forums with your naysaying? I am not speaking in ancient mandarin, it is fairly easy to communicate with people, unless you're blinded by wish to ruin conversation.

 

I think we have rather different intrepreations of what a dynamic system is, as from what you've written, you've described a state system.

 

You're clearly unhappy that I have a differing opinion, as that's twice now you've attacked me for not agreeing with you, first by claiming I'm f*ckng up the thread (your words) and this time for being a naysayer.

 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

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Pitot, I simply think you don't understand the concepts yourself properly. What you asked for is real time weather imports which then are expected to change dynamically.

 

There were 2 different arguments against it. The first, was that historic situations require historic weather. For example, the Battle of Waterloo was fought over saturated ground due to heavy rain overnight, and into the morning. If you refought that battle with real world weather, then the outcome could be drastically different with cavalry charges being far less exhausting to the horses, and the cannon rounds - which were made to bounce of ground for maximum effect just drilling into the wet ground and causing far less damage.

 

The other argument is over your interpretation of dynamic and real time weather:

 

Dynamic - of, or pertaining to something constantly changing or moving.

 

Importing weather systems in other simulations take a fixed set of data, which is probably updated no more often than hourly at even the most active weather stations.

 

If I recall correctly, FSX does so at the beginning of a flight, and then it stays that way for the duration of the flight?

 

What you want is for the weather data to be collected from a live source, then imported into a mission, then for the weather to change by itself to the next weather import. You also want it to represent every conceivable weather phenomenon, and then when the next update arrives you need it to miraculously match?

 

Nice idea, but frankly, it is impossible to achieve.

 

So, you really have a choice of 2 methods at present - dynamic weather generated by the mission planning software, or downloading real world weather data from the last weather report for the particular location you wish to fly in.

 

It is as far as I can see a very straightforward choice. The alternative, with even hourly reports being plugged into a mission - that you'd get freakishly sudden changes in conditions.

 

A dynamic system can be made to be as complex as the resources allow, and you can simply specify key drivers of the weather systems such as temperature, pressure centres, and humidity, and let the program run through how it will develop as you fly.

 

What you seem to think is you can have both, but I am afraid that would be virtually impossible, and always a fudge at best, simply because if you had something dynamic within the simulated environment, it could never match the real world changes.

 

Simply put, you could only ever start from a fixed point, and let the dynamic changes continue from that point or you'd get sudden, abrupt and very unwelcome shifts that happen instantly!

 

So, nice as your idea may be in theory, in practice, it wouldn't work for the two reasons stated.

 

And as far as your attitude to people who diagree with you is concerned, you are way way out of line. If you enter an argument in a forum, how can you not expect people to take different stances to you? As for the personal insults, I suggest you re-read the rules of this forum, and tone it down.

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DAWS Weather should work ok with 1.5.4 and 2.0.3, BUT it's limited to a constant weather setting all over the map due to static weather system structure.

 

I have in the future plan to built up a dynamic weather version, which should work this way:

1. Downloading cyclones basic data from weather online database;

2. Convert into DCS compatible cyclones table (ability to save those table for future reuse);

3. Insert into the mission, MP or SP (like DAWS Weather does now);

4. Once the sim is started, let the dynamic weather engine do it's job (it's the best solution and an engine limitation);

 

The obviously main problem is to find proper and easy to download&convert cyclones data. I got into this zybrib software but with no luck: http://www.zygrib.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=954

ChromiumDis.png

Author of DSMC, mod to enable scenario persistency and save updated miz file

Stable version & site: https://dsmcfordcs.wordpress.com/

Openbeta: https://github.com/Chromium18/DSMC

 

The thing is, helicopters are different from planes. An airplane by it's nature wants to fly, and if not interfered with too strongly by unusual events or by a deliberately incompetent pilot, it will fly. A helicopter does not want to fly. It is maintained in the air by a variety of forces in opposition to each other, and if there is any disturbance in this delicate balance the helicopter stops flying; immediately and disastrously.

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The Dynamic weather import, if/when you would be able to do it would indeed be best. Have noticed the standard weather bug of the clouds disappearing from external view use totally ruins any type of weather on MP missions.

 

Thing is though, hasn't ED stated that they are reworking weather in the future? I realise this could be quite some time before we see these changes. Just wonder about the amount of work put into a current solution, only to be wiped out by a future change.

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DAWS Weather should work ok with 1.5.4 and 2.0.3, BUT it's limited to a constant weather setting all over the map due to static weather system structure.

 

DAWS Weather is great but I'd really like something like it built into the Mission Editor/Generator.

 

And a way to enter historical METAR data as I don't always want the current weather in i.e. IRL August Batumi night temperatures, etc. when creating a day time mission in the ME at night.

 

Historic weather for WW2/Korea missions would be great but as the METAR standard only came in effect in 1968, it'd only be for quick entry of the weather over the English Channel in March, Vietnam in Sept., etc. rather than a specific date/day.

 

Dynamic weather is a nice idea but I usually find the transitions between weather types in simulators to be poor or too abrupt. I therefore prefer using fixed weather with a little (don't want scrub missions) realistic variation.

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