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When will we get the radar fixed?


kaboki

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I also don't experience any issues with the radar that shouldn't be there. It's working as it should.

 

Some remarks:

- It's not a search radar!! The MiG-21 is an interceptor, designed to intercept enemy bombers/spy planes with the help of GCI. The radar is just there to pick them up when getting close and to guide the R-3Rs. It's not intended to be used to find targets on it's own.

- The radar really hates low level flying. It's really difficult to find targets there, contrary to high level flying.

- The F-5 is a very small aircraft, which makes it hard to detect.

Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit

 

DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

Tornado3 small.jpg

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I'm relatively new to the mig but from understanding the radars and airframe capabilities it seems to me it's functioning correctly. But it would be nice if Dev could do a quick check to make sure the decimals are in correct place just as a what if. Other than that this module is amazing and highly impressed with the work and detail!

Intel 8700k @5ghz, 32gb ram, 1080ti, Rift S

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Having never experienced using the Migs radar in the real world, I can't say how it does/should behave. So i trust you guys are correct in the information you've given. However I do feel that some of it's working in game feel very counter-intuitive, particularly the issue I described of flying inverted displaying more targets. I do tend to enjoy flying as low as I can in combat servers, so it could well be that it is modeled realistically poorly, which is just something to deal with. So if that is the case, it doesn't explain why inverting the plane produces better returns on the planes, this can be seen at 2:36 in Hadwell's first video (admittedly this is cherry picking seeing as it happened once that I noticed in ~30 mins of footage, but I've also had the experience happen on two occasions.) Wouldn't inverting cause the radar to be looking at the ground and be even more unlikely to produce a good return? I'll try to get a video of what I'm seeing a bit later today.

Cheers,

Niall

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Having never experienced using the Migs radar in the real world, I can't say how it does/should behave. So i trust you guys are correct in the information you've given. However I do feel that some of it's working in game feel very counter-intuitive, particularly the issue I described of flying inverted displaying more targets. I do tend to enjoy flying as low as I can in combat servers, so it could well be that it is modeled realistically poorly, which is just something to deal with. So if that is the case, it doesn't explain why inverting the plane produces better returns on the planes, this can be seen at 2:36 in Hadwell's first video (admittedly this is cherry picking seeing as it happened once that I noticed in ~30 mins of footage, but I've also had the experience happen on two occasions.) Wouldn't inverting cause the radar to be looking at the ground and be even more unlikely to produce a good return? I'll try to get a video of what I'm seeing a bit later today.

Cheers,

Niall

 

At 2:36 in the first Hadwell's vid, the bandit is flying lower, so he dives for him from ~2km agl but can't pick him up on the radar. In attempt to do so, he levels up and inverts, utilizing the 17° cone above his nose instead. The altitude is getting a little bit low ~1km agl, but there is still some distance left to the target before it gets masked by the ground reflection (flat surface of sea in this case). Lock is achieved kinda in the last moment in this case before it enters into ground clutter - any closer in that scenario and you have to switch to fixed beam.

On the side note, notice the piper tracking IR sources - most likely courtesy of forced settings by the server.

 

 

As Cobra said, they will check the 1,5° downward angle of detection for the radar.

 

Also for people experiencing issues, I suggest testing it in singleplayer where you remove variables of server settings (even those hidden from you), netcode, possible latency issues, etc. Also stating if you are using all the sim/realistic settings or game avionics mode (or whatever it is caused), easy radar, etc could help. Also what Frederf mentioned before, selecting and deselecting these settings might help with overwriting "stuck" values in the config file, especially after updates.

Sent from my pComputer using Keyboard

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Also for people experiencing issues, I suggest testing it in singleplayer where you remove variables of server settings (even those hidden from you), netcode, possible latency issues, etc.

 

The problem is though, just like with some MiG fps & stability issues in the past, or recent, general DCS issues with the missiles, some bugs manifest themselves only in multiplayer, so one cannot avoid testing in such scenarios either.

i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10.

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You can bring a Balalaika to a sword fight, but don't expect it to have the same capabilities. From my experience, aspects and target size, affect all radars in DCS. And on the 21bis this requires me to play with the radar filters and consider the line-of-right of the radar to find an enemy successfully.

 

If there's anything to really complain about is to demand HQ to give us newer RWR :P , with our current RWR the only way to survive is to behave like a rodent..."THERES A THREAT, WHERE? I DONT KNOW, RUN FOR COVER"

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Ok,[ame=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pv-ceqRofUQ] I have made a video illustrating the point[/ame] hopefully with good enough quality to tell whats going on (downloaded OBS specifically for this, so don't know what I'm doing with it at all) It's a quick mission with whats supposed to be an F5 and an F15 flying straight, although the F-15 didn't cooperate! Hopefully this gets some attention as, correct me if I'm wrong, it shouldn't be working like that. I haven't got a video of it in multiplayer as people don't tend to be so willing to let me "test my radar@ on them :P, but you will have to take my word it happens there too.

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Bill, you need to give the radar some time to find the targets, and you are relatively close and low. All the clutter at the bottom should already give you a good indication that the last 10km on the radar is not useful. I do admit that it's strange that it's picking up the targets quickly upside down. Not sure why.

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I don't know where the misinformation is coming from but the RP-22SMA has scan limits of +-28° in azimuth and +-17°40'' in elevation relative to the horizon. I don't know if these are the antenna movement limits or the resulting displayed volume size, probably the former. Remember that the main beam is quite large so you can detect something 30° off axis without moving the antenna axis this far. Alternately to be confident of its position (i.e. track) you must pass the beam well beyond the limits of the target to see its "far edge" (~2°).

 

That does not mean the antenna has these limits of motion physically. The antenna is capable of at least 28 degrees relative to the aircraft axis (probably 30-40) in elevation alone.

 

The -25 +8 ownship mark correctness note is because the radar loses track of where the horizon is (to adequately judge if the target is above/below it) outside of those pitch limits. It'll still provide a mark but it can be wrong.

 

Why would anyone bother to include in the design "T" contact is below along with "⊥" contact is above marks (the middle case being both these marks together) if the minimum scan volume was as little as 0-1° below the horizon? That's effectively co-altitude.

 

At suitable altitudes and ranges we should be detecting targets well below the horizon. Consider that at 10km altitude -20° elevation means that the ground return has to travel 58.5km round trip with the minimal retroreflection involved at an incidence 70° from normal and then somehow disrupt the display. Of course the Earth can be a significant return relative to a metal airplane due to the difference in size but considering that radar return falls off to the fourth power of distance and the narrow angles involved, it's not a big deal at altitude.

 

The first issue found when descending lower is that the side lobe return clutters the display and frustrates detection and track. Despite the lower power of the side lobe compared to the main it's steeper angle of incidence and shorter round trip produce a significant ground return. Manual recommends engaging the side lobe filter at 3-10km altitude (soil water content starts giving a disruptive ground return) and the positive tilt at 1,000m. Above 10km ground return should not be a significant issue.

 

In contrast to the angle performance the detection performance is exceptional, detecting MiG-21 sized radar targets at 30km every time. It should be only this range for large RCS like bombers, fighters at less ~18km.


Edited by Frederf
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TheSnark,

I set up a straight flying F5 again also at 2500ft (that's the altitude in the video,) and tailed it for 6 mins at a distance of ~4nm, but it couldn't pick up it up the radar, inverting caused it to appear immediately as shown. I closed to a distance of ~0.5nm over 3 mins again nothing coming up.

An extract from the manual about usage of the Radar: "The Sapphire needs three seconds to perform a full scan in search mode. When searching for targets, fly for 10-15 seconds in one direction to allow a thorough search of an illuminated volume of airspace." So I feel I was more than generous with the time given to find the target.

A lot of the posts previous state it's poor low level performance, so i tried at 10000ft with a distance of ~4nm, and it popped up immediately with me in correct orientation, I inverted but failed to pick it up this time, and also noticed considerably more ground clutter on the screen than at lower altitudes (I imagine it should have less clutter at higher altitudes?)

I tried again at 5000ft, again it was there without inverting and disappeared as I inverted.

4000ft the same, still there.

Then 3000ft I had the results as displayed in the video again, invisible to me till I'm upside down. I not sure what conclusions can be drawn from this, but these are simply my observations. This was all tested with the F5 only, so it could be an issue specifically related to that. However iirc when the F15 was present in front of me it too appeared as I inverted the Mig.

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Ok,
hopefully with good enough quality to tell whats going on (downloaded OBS specifically for this, so don't know what I'm doing with it at all) It's a quick mission with whats supposed to be an F5 and an F15 flying straight, although the F-15 didn't cooperate! Hopefully this gets some attention as, correct me if I'm wrong, it shouldn't be working like that. I haven't got a video of it in multiplayer as people don't tend to be so willing to let me "test my radar@ on them :P, but you will have to take my word it happens there too.

 

 

Hahhaha, seems like flying inverted is gonna be my new multiplayer tactic:pilotfly:

Specs:

Intel i7 3770k 3.5Ghz, Nvidia GTX980 4GB, 8gb RAM

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Hahhaha, seems like flying inverted is gonna be my new multiplayer tactic:pilotfly:

:D if this "tactic" becomes popular the page 162, "Emergency procedures" chapter, section 2.4 "Engine Relight" will be the most often printed one :D

You can try flying inverted, can be done max for 15 sec at MIL power, 5s on fist reheat and 3s on emergency afterburner. Can be even shorter as keeping the nose over horizon in inverted flight introduces substantial negative G. Afterwards the result is a few tons of not exactly a glider with wings of the size of origami :)

F/A-18, F-16, F-14, M-2000C, A-10C, AV-8B, AJS-37 Viggen, F-5E-3, F-86F, MiG-21bis, MiG-15bis, L-39 Albatros, C-101 Aviojet, P-51D, Spitfire LF Mk. IX, Bf 109 4-K, UH-1H, Mi-8, Ka-50, NTTR, Normandy, Persian Gulf... and not enough time to fully enjoy it all

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Can confirm it's broken in multiplayer as well.

 

I can't pick up ANYTHING in level flight on my radar. As soon as I roll and fly inverted every contact appears like expected

 

Please note that I noticed this abnormal behavior BEFORE reading this thread. There was no external influence, I noticed on my own that the radar does not behave as it should. I used to fly the 21 a lot, the radar has definitely degraded massively on my machine

 

 

l4T3TE6.jpg

 

as soon as I returned to level flight my radar was clear again and it was impossible for me to pick up those targets. Went back to flying inverted, boom, contacts appeared on the radar almost instantly

 

 

Edit: Only tested this at low altitudes. Radar may or may not work properly at higher altitudes


Edited by Elo001
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Who installed the set upside down?

 

EDIT:

 

I just conducted a quick bunch of tests on both alpha and stable branch.

 

I was able to pick up and lock up targets at both 7,000 ft MSL and 20,000 ft MSL both on altitude with me and 5,000 ft higher. I was able to pick Bears and Stratofortresses just fine at the maximum range. I was able to lock up, launch, and down targets.

 

When I roll, I lose my radar picture and it's filled with clutter (as it should if you're picking up the ground).

 

An integrity check may be in order for some. I'd even go as far as reinstalling the module to see if that helps.


Edited by MiG21bisFishbedL

Reformers hate him! This one weird trick found by a bush pilot will make gunfighter obsessed old farts angry at your multi-role carrier deck line up!

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Who installed the set upside down?

 

EDIT:

 

I just conducted a quick bunch of tests on both alpha and stable branch.

 

I was able to pick up and lock up targets at both 7,000 ft MSL and 20,000 ft MSL both on altitude with me and 5,000 ft higher. I was able to pick Bears and Stratofortresses just fine at the maximum range. I was able to lock up, launch, and down targets.

 

When I roll, I lose my radar picture and it's filled with clutter (as it should if you're picking up the ground).

 

An integrity check may be in order for some. I'd even go as far as reinstalling the module to see if that helps.

 

 

As far as I can tell it's not consistent behavior. On one sortie the radar works (more or less, it at least picks up SOME targets), then on the next I suddenly have to fly inverted for it to pick up anything at all. Seems to be a more complex bug, maybe the unexpected behavior only occurs at certain altitudes or depends on some other geometrical properties. I even had a sortie where the radar did work in the beginning, then after some time it just stopped picking up targets and I had to go into inverted flight again (though this was probably caused by being at different altitudes when it worked / didn't work). No idea what state the plane / target / world needs to be in for this to occur, seems almost random

 

 

EDIT

 

I'm going to try building a singleplayer mission that shows this bugged behavior consistently. Should I succeed I'll upload the mission, if I can't get it to bug out consistently I'll also report that


Edited by Elo001
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inconsistent behavior between sessions is also bugging the Aso-2 countermeasure system.

 

tough to nail it down, when it randomly might work with no problem, even if you try it 10 times, but then occasionally will always fail/not work properly until you restart.

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EDIT

 

I'm going to try building a singleplayer mission that shows this bugged behavior consistently. Should I succeed I'll upload the mission, if I can't get it to bug out consistently I'll also report that

 

 

Level flight:

No matter how far away I am or how close I get, the radar doesn't pick up any target

BwbvrYp.jpg

 

Inverted flight:

Targets get detected from quite a distance

1zrTaJI.jpg

 

 

Mission is attached, it's consistent on my end, restarted the mission 4 or 5 times and always got this behavior

MigRadarTest.miz


Edited by Elo001
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I just tried it out from scramble to intercept to touchdown on my own. Radar works just fine, for me. That said, the ASO-2 bug is definitely present for me. Maybe once every 7 or so missions, I can use flares.

 

So, there seems to be an issue with file consistency. At least, that's my guess.

 

I'll try out your mission in a bit, but I suspect I'll get the same results.

 

EDIT:

 

STRANGE WIZARDRY IS AFOOT.

 

Finally, I was able to reproduce the bug. I cannot pick up the aircraft in your mission until I invert.

 

Now, when I make a mission and place down aircraft? It works just fine. Seriously:

 

Here we are, in your test. As you can see, the radar gnomes have refused to cooperate.

VkjzhtM.png

 

However, upon subjecting the radar gnomes to negative G's, they seem to finally see things they way that I want them to.

PLHjEaW.png

 

And yet, the radar gnomes are perfectly cooperative. The only difference between missions is that I flew as blufor and the AI were given a series of way points so they flew in circles as opposed to relying on AI decisions. I had an A-50 and 4 MiG-29A in the air.

bATBmrs.png


Edited by MiG21bisFishbedL

Reformers hate him! This one weird trick found by a bush pilot will make gunfighter obsessed old farts angry at your multi-role carrier deck line up!

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I might be able to do one better.

 

Open up your mission and set the MiG to an altitude of 3,400 feet AGL

 

When you dip down below it, it doesn't seem to work terribly well. But, once you pop up above it, things seem fine.


Edited by MiG21bisFishbedL
More exact altitude.

Reformers hate him! This one weird trick found by a bush pilot will make gunfighter obsessed old farts angry at your multi-role carrier deck line up!

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Ok this is getting weird as ****

 

If I start at 3500 I can see targets in level flight on my radar for 1 to 2 seconds right after I start the mission. Then they disappear and I have to invert again at which point it picks up all targets no problem. Back to level flight and they're invisible again

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