When will we get the radar fixed?

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Attached the modified mission file.

 

Below 3,400~ feet AGL, you do indeed have to invert to get the radar to work. However, once you go above that altitude, it seems to function normally.

 

This would explain my inability to reproduce the bug initially as I put the AI targets at altitudes between 10,000 and 30,000 feet.

MigRadarTestAbv3400.miz

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Ok this is getting weird as ****

 

If I start at 3500 I can see targets in level flight on my radar for 1 to 2 seconds right after I start the mission. Then they disappear and I have to invert again at which point it picks up all targets no problem. Back to level flight and they're invisible again

 

Try at a higher altitude; 3,500 feet or so isn't doing any favors in the MiG, regardless. :thumbup: Give yourself a target at 20,000 and place your MiG at about 18,000.

[Elo001]

So I guess it's a bug related to ground clutter. If you're too low ground clutter hides all targets, period, even if they're clearly above you and you're looking up. Then for some reason flying inverted deactivates or normalizes the ground clutter interference

Edited July 30, 2016 by Elo001

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

The ground does provide quite a bit of interference to the RP-22SMA. It's generally advised to use it above 3,000 meters AGL, if memory serves.

 

However, that doesn't explain why a radar that looks forward and up can pick up low level targets if it rolls over on its back nor why it can't at least pick up targets that are 12 high and well within its range.

[Elo001]

I'm just gonna theorize right now.

 

Somewhere in their ground clutter simulation they forgot a minus sign. At higher altitudes this doesn't matter because the ground clutter factor is way too low. However at lower altitudes ground clutter does become a factor. Flipping your plane "fixes" the missed / additional minus sign and the radar clutter simulation now thinks you're flying level

 

 

Alright, that's it, I'm out

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Also, as a heads up the Cobra:

 

-The Low Altitude compensation has no effect on this.

-This is also present in the alpha.

-It's definitely altitude relative to the ground. At an elevation of ~5,000 ft MSL and an altitude of 1,000 ft AGL, this is reproducible.

Edited July 30, 2016 by MiG21bisFishbedL

[INordaas]

Was there ever a time the MiG 21 wasn't bugged to shit?

[Hadwell]

Was there ever a time the MiG 21 wasn't bugged to shit?

 

1.5.2 it was decent, though I like it better now, and I don't seem to be having these radar issues, or if I am, they don't stop me from finding the baddies, the radar in 1.5.3 was rough though...

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

1.5.2 it was decent, though I like it better now, and I don't seem to be having these radar issues, or if I am, they don't stop me from finding the baddies, the radar in 1.5.3 was rough though...

 

I find the issues with the ASO-2 to be more concerning. I can fly higher, as you really should be, but I'd sure love to be able to drop flares and chaff, again.

[Hadwell]

I find the issues with the ASO-2 to be more concerning. I can fly higher, as you really should be, but I'd sure love to be able to drop flares and chaff, again.

 

I suggest trying to arm them twice every time you rearm, it could be the same bug as with the rato pods, where every time you arm them, use them, then land and rearm, they either fall off or just don't work

 

But if you wait for the rearming to complete, then rearm again, they don't fall off and do work...

 

Not sure if it will work the same way with flares though...

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

I suggest trying to arm them twice every time you rearm, it could be the same bug as with the rato pods, where every time you arm them, use them, then land and rearm, they either fall off or just don't work

 

But if you wait for the rearming to complete, then rearm again, they don't fall off and do work...

 

Not sure if it will work the same way with flares though...

 

Yeah, no dice.

[iLOVEwindmills]

I also have issues with flares/chaff, it tends to happen on the first flight I make after joining a server. Zero response from pressing the buttons, then next fly out it works fine again and usually does for the rest of the session.

[grunf]

Maybe it's just a lucky coincidence, but each time I'd change the amount of chaff/flare, the ASO-2 would work normally.

[Wright_GR1]

Was there ever a time the MiG 21 wasn't bugged to shit?

 

I've owned this module for maybe 2 months now and it has not been stable at all since then, I have just stopped bothering with A2A stuff. The Countermeasure pod has been a joke, the radar has only worked for 1 patch but then the missiles have been funked (ED's fault that one I know) and then despite it being a mature module the FM is changed just as I get the hang of it and am able to land it consistently etc

 

For the amount of time I have had in the frame its been a waste of money tbh.

[BadHabit]

I cannot confirm or replicate the problems you mention at all. Pod's are working, no matter what intervolts setting I change (58-12,48-16,42-22 is what I am using most) radar is wokring except that bug I posted (http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=170513) and FM is fine as we know it.

[Elo001]

I cannot confirm or replicate the problems you mention at all. Pod's are working, no matter what intervolts setting I change (58-12,48-16,42-22 is what I am using most) radar is wokring except that bug I posted (http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=170513) and FM is fine as we know it.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2860244&postcount=44

 

Please at least read through the thread before blindly defending LN, otherwise the Mig21 will never be in a working condition

Edited July 31, 2016 by Elo001

[Tirak]

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2860244&postcount=44

 

Please at least read through the thread before blindly defending LN, otherwise the Mig21 will never be in a working condition

 

Can confirm the Inverted behavior in multiplayer. Was practicing on Sierra Hotel and practicing Radar because I thought the problem was user related. Level flight, 5000ft, within visual range of an F-5 and F-15. Level flight saw nothing on the radar. Inverted, both contacts popped up clear as day.

 

This has got to be a bug, I cannot fathom the real radar operates in such a bizarre fashion.

[kaboki]

Yup, radar is working nicely, though only in inverted flight:lol:. Seriously LN get this fixed. Just did a test, had 7 targets visually infront of me, radar saw nothing, I inverted, all targets popped up right away:(

[BadHabit]

I know very well what is stated on this threads and in many others. I still will say the same and it s well known I am not defending anybody. Such I use the tools provided to post bugs and don't repeatedly cry about them. Learn the envelope of the avionics and use them accordingly. Radar is most likely to fail at low alts.

 

Sent from my HUAWEI G510-0100 using Tapatalk

[OperatorJack]

I've owned this module for maybe 2 months now and it has not been stable at all since then, I have just stopped bothering with A2A stuff. The Countermeasure pod has been a joke, the radar has only worked for 1 patch but then the missiles have been funked (ED's fault that one I know) and then despite it being a mature module the FM is changed just as I get the hang of it and am able to land it consistently etc

 

For the amount of time I have had in the frame its been a waste of money tbh.

 

I agree the radar and CMs are a joke but the new FM is easier to handle, especially landing.

LN is quickly becoming VEAO tier though.

[Tirak]

I know very well what is stated on this threads and in many others. I still will say the same and it s well known I am not defending anybody. Such I use the tools provided to post bugs and don't repeatedly cry about them. Learn the envelope of the avionics and use them accordingly. Radar is most likely to fail at low alts.

 

Sent from my HUAWEI G510-0100 using Tapatalk

 

Posting about it here spreads the knowledge to the MiG-21 community. I would have never have thought to try flying inverted as a workaround until I read about it here. Talking about it in the open keeps everyone up to date, even those who don't read through the Bug Tracker daily, and lets us come up with temporary solutions until the problem is fixed. The radar is bugged, multiple people have posted easily repeatable experiments, operating within the correct envelope. Not talking about it, and just keeping to ourselves and trusting the developers to find the problem is exactly the wrong thing to do.

[INordaas]

Can someone help me understand why a radar would completely shut down below a certain altitude, I can understand that it will have trouble with targets against the ground, but why would it have difficulties picking up targets above the nose against the sky while flying low?

[TheSnark]

Reflections that bounce up from the ground become a return signal that the radar knows not what to make off.

 

But yeah, the stability of the Mig-21 Module seems to be out of the window recently. Lets just hope they can get it back on track!

[Bushmanni]

Antennas radiate and receive power also in sidelobes besides the mainlobe. While the mainlobe is the strongest lobe it probably doesn't cover even half of the total pattern of the antenna but in any case the sidelobes cover significant portion of the total antenna radiating/receiving pattern. When you fly low the sidelobes pointing below horizon will emit power to the ground and also receive the echoes. Signals from sidelobes will get mixed in with the signals from the mainlobe. Sidelobe energy has less distance to reach the ground and there's multiple sidelobes pointing to the ground so they can have pretty strong signal despite the sidelobes being much weaker than the mainlobe. The sidelobes also point in various directions so the echoes from ground come from various distances further messing up the signal. Unless the target echo coming from mainlobe is stronger than the combined echoes from sidelobes for the target distance it gets drowned out by the sidelobe noise.

 

There are techniques to suppress noise from sidelobes and from ground in general but MiG-21 radar uses only some primitive ones. Still even a modern high tech radar will suffer at low altitude to some extent.

[Frederf]

The beam has some width and there are side lobes which are pointed down while the main beam is pointed level or up. But a radar doesn't "shut down" so much that it is overwhelmed by clutter. The contact is a "digital" mark in that the circuitry decides if the return is a contact or not (or if there are very many wrong marks). The key to understanding when the digital recognition breaks down is to know how the digital mark is decided in the first place.

 

The RP-21 and RP-22 can and do "look down" they just don't look down well at low altitudes and/or steep angles. Doppler radar was adopted to make look down a relatively trouble-free thing (about 2/3rds range penalty in most systems). This does not mean that earlier systems like RP-21 and RP-22 could not detect targets below only that they were constrained by clutter problems.

 

RP-21 was a "spin scan" type radar which overcame the very large beam size to localize detection to a small resolution (~4°, resolution ~0.1°) by physically rotating the beam around a point on its edge and doing some signal processing.

 

RP-22 was a monopulse design which effectively does the same thing but at the same time by having a slightly split beam and comparing the dual return. It's roughly doing the same "spin scan" technique but instead of being in one place and later in another place it's being in two places at once.

 

What must be understood is that both RP-21 and RP-22 had symmetrical scan volumes above and below horizon in the general mode. A RP-21 detects from -12 to +12 relative to horizon (RP-22 range is larger). The "up" "down" "middle" symbols were divided equally in 8 degree bands in this volume. Given the permissive clutter conditions the RP-21 would be detecting contacts up to 12 degrees below horizon.

 

This radar can look down. The question is at what point that ground return is troublesome.

 

Here is an RP-21 scope picture. Maybe there is an aircraft target there but who can find it? http://www.mig-21-online.de/Funkmessvisier/Bilder/Bild_41.jpg

Edited August 4, 2016 by Frederf