Krupi Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 (edited) Normandy Based December 1944 XIV Squadrons: Squadrons 402, 130, 350, 610, 41, XIV Fighter Recce Squadrons: Squadrons 2 and 430 So previously we had found that about 7 squadrons in December had been fully equipped with XIV, we have 20 aircraft in a squadron however with loses and maintenance let's say 16 aircraft ready in each squadron... That would be 112 XIV out of a total of 510 reported in December 44 That would make Spitfire XIV making up ~20% of the 2nd TAF Spitfires Is that a logical estimate? Edited August 1, 2016 by Krupi Windows 10 Pro | ASUS RANGER VIII | i5 6600K @ 4.6GHz| MSI RTX 2060 SUPER | 32GB RAM | Corsair H100i | Corsair Carbide 540 | HP Reverb G2 | MFG crosswind Pedals | Custom Spitfire Cockpit Project IX Cockpit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rel4y Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 Not exactly. Attrition was much much higher and as I have said numerous times now 2 Sqd and 430 Sdq were mixed with Mustangs till Jan 45. But there were some more Squadrons equipped with Mk. XIVs as well. So in the end there were probably somewhere above 100 examples in service in Dec 44. I am currently compiling a sheet based on SNs mostly from (airhistory.org.uk) for all Mk. XIVs and should be able to give almost pinpoint numbers after I am done. It just takes time to do. If someone meanwhile could tell me what the abbreviations "CAC ops" or "CB ops" means I would be very grateful. I am guessing it has smething to do with parts salvage after Cat AC/B damage classification. Cougar, CH and Saitek PnP hall sensor kits + shift registers: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=220916 Shapeways store for DIY flight simming equipment and repair: https://www.shapeways.com/shops/rel4y-diy-joystick-flight-simming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krupi Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 (edited) Thanks for the info. It seems the mustangs were phased out in January for the 2 Sqd. 430 converted to XIV in November phasing out the Mustang in December. Edited August 1, 2016 by Krupi Windows 10 Pro | ASUS RANGER VIII | i5 6600K @ 4.6GHz| MSI RTX 2060 SUPER | 32GB RAM | Corsair H100i | Corsair Carbide 540 | HP Reverb G2 | MFG crosswind Pedals | Custom Spitfire Cockpit Project IX Cockpit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rel4y Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 (edited) I sadly only have reliable info for 2 Sqd yet which flew the last Mustang I sortie on 17/1/45. Lets see if something useful turns up. :) BTW: I think you were right and I was wrong about Squadrons 91 and 32. After equipping with Mk IXs in Aug 44, they seem to have started reequipping with new Mk. XIVe again in November 44. It may very well be they were mostly Mk. XIVs in Dec 44. So Ill take everything back and claim the opposite! :D Edited August 1, 2016 by rel4y Cougar, CH and Saitek PnP hall sensor kits + shift registers: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=220916 Shapeways store for DIY flight simming equipment and repair: https://www.shapeways.com/shops/rel4y-diy-joystick-flight-simming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krupi Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 (edited) I think you are right about C.A.C it appears to mean "Category AC damage & beyond unit capability" http://www.stokemuseums.org.uk/life-times-rw388/ I will look for something a bit more official :) Edited August 1, 2016 by Krupi Better Site Windows 10 Pro | ASUS RANGER VIII | i5 6600K @ 4.6GHz| MSI RTX 2060 SUPER | 32GB RAM | Corsair H100i | Corsair Carbide 540 | HP Reverb G2 | MFG crosswind Pedals | Custom Spitfire Cockpit Project IX Cockpit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiloMorai Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 You guys do know about this web site don't you? http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/home.html Spitfire XIV serial numbers, MT847-MT858,MV246-MV273,MV286-MV320,MV347-MV386,NH637-NH661,NH685-NH720,NH741-NH759,NH775-NH813,NH831-NH846,NH857-NH871,NH873-NH875,NH892-NH929,NM814-NM823,RB140-RB189,RM615-RM625,RM648-RM656,RM670-RM713,RM726-RM770,RM783-RM825,RM839-RM887,RM901-RM943,RM957-RM999,RN113-RN160,RN173-RN221,SM812-SM842,SM876-SM899,SM913-SM938,TP236-TP240,TP256,TX974-TX998,TZ102-TZ149,TZ152-TZ176,TZ178-TZ199 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiloMorai Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 Thanks for the info. It seems the mustangs were phased out in January for the 2 Sqd. 430 converted to XIV in November phasing out the Mustang in December. During Bodenplatte 430 Sqd, 4 Mustang Is: AG628 CatB/E, AL966 Cat E, AG 544 Cat E and AP178 damaged Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friedrich-4B Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 Yes and the PRU were separate from the 2 TAF flying the dedicated XI as Milo stated :) The PRU were part of 2 TAF (see below Orders of Battle Shores and Thomas Vol 1, pages 120-121) Look at Headquarters and 84 & 84 Groups; HQ was a dedicated PR Wing, while the other two groups also had PR Wings: [/url] [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]************************************* Fortunately, Mk IX is slightly stable, anyway, the required stick travel is not high... but nothing extraordinary. Very pleasant to fly, very controllable, predictable and steady. We never refuse to correct something that was found outside ED if it is really proven...But we never will follow some "experts" who think that only they are the greatest aerodynamic guru with a secret knowledge. :smartass: WWII AIRCRAFT PERFORMANCE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rel4y Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 (edited) You guys do know about this web site don't you? http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/home.html Spitfire XIV serial numbers, MT847-MT858,MV246-MV273,... Yes I am working mainly with this site. Do you by any chance know what "CAC ops" or "CB ops" abbreviates for? I would really like to know what ops stands for. Edited August 2, 2016 by rel4y Cougar, CH and Saitek PnP hall sensor kits + shift registers: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=220916 Shapeways store for DIY flight simming equipment and repair: https://www.shapeways.com/shops/rel4y-diy-joystick-flight-simming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rel4y Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 I dont think this is it, as CB and CAC are damage assessment codes for the British Air Ministry. Usually the listed aircraft also goes to RSUs and or AST/H after a CAC/CB ops incident. http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/abbreviations.html http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/damage.html It must be something related to aircraft damage or repair. Cougar, CH and Saitek PnP hall sensor kits + shift registers: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=220916 Shapeways store for DIY flight simming equipment and repair: https://www.shapeways.com/shops/rel4y-diy-joystick-flight-simming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friedrich-4B Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 Yes I am working mainly with this site. Do you by any chance know what "CAC ops" or "CB ops" abbreviates for? I would really like to know what ops stands for. CAC = Category AC; ops = operations. Combined, it means that the damage was sustained during an operational sortie There were several damage categories ranging from A = minor, usually repairable by the unit, to E, which was essentially a right-off. Within each category, there were also sub-categories; eg: C1, C2, C3 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]************************************* Fortunately, Mk IX is slightly stable, anyway, the required stick travel is not high... but nothing extraordinary. Very pleasant to fly, very controllable, predictable and steady. We never refuse to correct something that was found outside ED if it is really proven...But we never will follow some "experts" who think that only they are the greatest aerodynamic guru with a secret knowledge. :smartass: WWII AIRCRAFT PERFORMANCE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rel4y Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 (edited) OK, so lets take RB152 as example. FF 3-12-43 39MU 27-12-43 610S 14-2-44 AST 8-5-44 'Gem' mods 610S CAC ops 24-6-44 ros 350S 22-2-45 CAC ops 28-2-45 130S 5-4-45 3BRU CE 23-11-46 610S CAC ops 24-6-44 -> So, with 610 Sqd the ac during operations sustained category AC damage on 24.06.44. Next entry is: ros 350S 22-2-45 -> On 22.02.45 the ac was repaired on site by 350 Sqd. How is this correctly interpreted? Category AC repair is beyond unit capacity, thats clear. So was it transferred to RSU/MU/factory sometime after 24.06.44, repaired there and returned to 610 Sqd or afterwards directly reassigned to 350 Sqd. Or was it repaired on site by 350 Sqd at 22.02.45, or is the ros entry related to a second accident? This is all but unambiguous. Edited August 2, 2016 by rel4y Cougar, CH and Saitek PnP hall sensor kits + shift registers: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=220916 Shapeways store for DIY flight simming equipment and repair: https://www.shapeways.com/shops/rel4y-diy-joystick-flight-simming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friedrich-4B Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 (edited) OK, so lets take RB152 as example. FF 3-12-43 39MU 27-12-43 610S 14-2-44 AST 8-5-44 'Gem' mods 610S CAC ops 24-6-44 ros 350S 22-2-45 CAC ops 28-2-45 130S 5-4-45 3BRU CE 23-11-46 610S CAC ops 24-6-44 -> So, with 610 Sqd the ac during operations sustained category AC damage on 24.06.44. Next entry is: ros 350S 22-2-45 -> On 22.02.45 the ac was repaired on site by 350 Sqd. How is this correctly interpreted? Category AC repair is beyond unit capacity, thats clear. So was it transferred to RSU/MU/factory sometime after 24.06.44, repaired there and returned to 610 Sqd or afterwards directly reassigned to 350 Sqd. Or was it repaired on site by 350 Sqd at 22.02.45, or is the ros entry related to a second accident? This is all but unambiguous. See RAF Repair Categories WW 2 The entry should read as follows: 610S CAC ops 24-6-44 ros, then 350S 22-2-45 CAC ops 28-2-45 : thus, RB152 was damaged - possibly on the same day - and repaired on site by an outside repair unit on June 24, 1944: on 22 Feb '45, it had been transferred to 350 Sqn directly from 610 Sqn. Edited August 2, 2016 by Friedrich-4/B add website [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]************************************* Fortunately, Mk IX is slightly stable, anyway, the required stick travel is not high... but nothing extraordinary. Very pleasant to fly, very controllable, predictable and steady. We never refuse to correct something that was found outside ED if it is really proven...But we never will follow some "experts" who think that only they are the greatest aerodynamic guru with a secret knowledge. :smartass: WWII AIRCRAFT PERFORMANCE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friedrich-4B Posted August 3, 2016 Share Posted August 3, 2016 Some go too far in speaking against that site. Indeed they do, particularly certain people who run a "rival" website ...And than posting 200 accounts of spitfire pilots shooting down german planes .And no german account or far too few of germans doing the same to the british planes. What's interesting about all these complaints that the site is biased, is that not one of the complainants has actually demonstrated that oodles of German combat reports &/etc can be found in - say - the Bundesarchiv, to redress the purported bias, nor have any of the complainants ever offered to help by going to the time and considerable expense involved in digging out any such documents and posting them on the net, for the rest of us to download for free. :music_whistling: [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]************************************* Fortunately, Mk IX is slightly stable, anyway, the required stick travel is not high... but nothing extraordinary. Very pleasant to fly, very controllable, predictable and steady. We never refuse to correct something that was found outside ED if it is really proven...But we never will follow some "experts" who think that only they are the greatest aerodynamic guru with a secret knowledge. :smartass: WWII AIRCRAFT PERFORMANCE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartforgie Posted August 3, 2016 Share Posted August 3, 2016 It would be lovely if someone could just list Spitfire XIV air to air victories against Luftwaffe manned planes between January -september instead of dubious alternate history snippets from long discredited revisonist sites. You need "Fighter Command War Diaries" volumes 4 and 5 by John Foreman for that :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavagai Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 What's interesting about all these complaints that the site is biased, is that not one of the complainants has actually demonstrated that oodles of German combat reports &/etc can be found in - say - the Bundesarchiv, to redress the purported bias, nor have any of the complainants ever offered to help by going to the time and considerable expense involved in digging out any such documents and posting them on the net, for the rest of us to download for free. :music_whistling: Fortunately, one can justifiably criticize a published work without having to redress its omissions himself.:smilewink: P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friedrich-4B Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Fortunately, one can justifiably criticize a published work without having to redress its omissions himself.:smilewink: Fortunately, one can also justifiably criticize the critics for making accusations of bias, when the critics don't seem to understand the processes involved in finding and posting German combat reports etc. It takes dedication, lots of hard work and stacks of money - even so, there's no guarantee that such documents will actually be found and/or made available to the public. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]************************************* Fortunately, Mk IX is slightly stable, anyway, the required stick travel is not high... but nothing extraordinary. Very pleasant to fly, very controllable, predictable and steady. We never refuse to correct something that was found outside ED if it is really proven...But we never will follow some "experts" who think that only they are the greatest aerodynamic guru with a secret knowledge. :smartass: WWII AIRCRAFT PERFORMANCE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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