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The Air Battle over Normandy


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Normandy Based December 1944

 

XIV Squadrons:

 

Squadrons 402, 130, 350, 610, 41,

 

XIV Fighter Recce Squadrons:

 

Squadrons 2 and 430

 

So previously we had found that about 7 squadrons in December had been fully equipped with XIV, we have 20 aircraft in a squadron however with loses and maintenance let's say 16 aircraft ready in each squadron...

 

That would be 112 XIV out of a total of 510 reported in December 44

 

That would make Spitfire XIV making up ~20% of the 2nd TAF Spitfires

 

Is that a logical estimate?


Edited by Krupi

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Not exactly. Attrition was much much higher and as I have said numerous times now 2 Sqd and 430 Sdq were mixed with Mustangs till Jan 45. But there were some more Squadrons equipped with Mk. XIVs as well. So in the end there were probably somewhere above 100 examples in service in Dec 44. I am currently compiling a sheet based on SNs mostly from (airhistory.org.uk) for all Mk. XIVs and should be able to give almost pinpoint numbers after I am done. It just takes time to do.

 

If someone meanwhile could tell me what the abbreviations "CAC ops" or "CB ops" means I would be very grateful. I am guessing it has smething to do with parts salvage after Cat AC/B damage classification.

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Thanks for the info.

 

It seems the mustangs were phased out in January for the 2 Sqd.

 

430 converted to XIV in November phasing out the Mustang in December.


Edited by Krupi

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I sadly only have reliable info for 2 Sqd yet which flew the last Mustang I sortie on 17/1/45. Lets see if something useful turns up. :)

 

BTW: I think you were right and I was wrong about Squadrons 91 and 32. After equipping with Mk IXs in Aug 44, they seem to have started reequipping with new Mk. XIVe again in November 44. It may very well be they were mostly Mk. XIVs in Dec 44. So Ill take everything back and claim the opposite! :D


Edited by rel4y

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I think you are right about C.A.C it appears to mean "Category AC damage & beyond unit capability"

 

http://www.stokemuseums.org.uk/life-times-rw388/

 

I will look for something a bit more official :)


Edited by Krupi
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You guys do know about this web site don't you?

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/home.html

 

Spitfire XIV serial numbers,

 

MT847-MT858,MV246-MV273,MV286-MV320,MV347-MV386,NH637-NH661,NH685-NH720,NH741-NH759,NH775-NH813,NH831-NH846,NH857-NH871,NH873-NH875,NH892-NH929,NM814-NM823,RB140-RB189,RM615-RM625,RM648-RM656,RM670-RM713,RM726-RM770,RM783-RM825,RM839-RM887,RM901-RM943,RM957-RM999,RN113-RN160,RN173-RN221,SM812-SM842,SM876-SM899,SM913-SM938,TP236-TP240,TP256,TX974-TX998,TZ102-TZ149,TZ152-TZ176,TZ178-TZ199

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Thanks for the info.

 

It seems the mustangs were phased out in January for the 2 Sqd.

 

430 converted to XIV in November phasing out the Mustang in December.

 

During Bodenplatte 430 Sqd, 4 Mustang Is: AG628 CatB/E, AL966 Cat E, AG 544 Cat E and AP178 damaged

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Yes and the PRU were separate from the 2 TAF flying the dedicated XI as Milo stated :)

 

The PRU were part of 2 TAF (see below Orders of Battle Shores and Thomas Vol 1, pages 120-121)

Look at Headquarters and 84 & 84 Groups; HQ was a dedicated PR Wing, while the other two groups also had PR Wings:

 

2nd%20Tactical%20Air%20Force%20Vol%201120_zps3emdeo19.jpg[/url]

2nd%20Tactical%20Air%20Force%20Vol%201121_zpsxg4ivjoo.jpg

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You guys do know about this web site don't you?

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/home.html

 

Spitfire XIV serial numbers,

 

MT847-MT858,MV246-MV273,...

 

Yes I am working mainly with this site. Do you by any chance know what "CAC ops" or "CB ops" abbreviates for? I would really like to know what ops stands for.


Edited by rel4y

Cougar, CH and Saitek PnP hall sensor kits + shift registers: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=220916

 

Shapeways store for DIY flight simming equipment and repair: https://www.shapeways.com/shops/rel4y-diy-joystick-flight-simming

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I dont think this is it, as CB and CAC are damage assessment codes for the British Air Ministry. Usually the listed aircraft also goes to RSUs and or AST/H after a CAC/CB ops incident.

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/abbreviations.html

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/damage.html

 

It must be something related to aircraft damage or repair.

Cougar, CH and Saitek PnP hall sensor kits + shift registers: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=220916

 

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Yes I am working mainly with this site. Do you by any chance know what "CAC ops" or "CB ops" abbreviates for? I would really like to know what ops stands for.

 

CAC = Category AC; ops = operations. Combined, it means that the damage was sustained during an operational sortie

 

There were several damage categories ranging from A = minor, usually repairable by the unit, to E, which was essentially a right-off. Within each category, there were also sub-categories; eg: C1, C2, C3

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OK, so lets take RB152 as example.

 

FF 3-12-43 39MU 27-12-43 610S 14-2-44 AST 8-5-44 'Gem' mods 610S CAC ops 24-6-44 ros 350S 22-2-45 CAC ops 28-2-45 130S 5-4-45 3BRU CE 23-11-46

 

610S CAC ops 24-6-44 -> So, with 610 Sqd the ac during operations sustained category AC damage on 24.06.44.

 

Next entry is: ros 350S 22-2-45 -> On 22.02.45 the ac was repaired on site by 350 Sqd.

 

How is this correctly interpreted? Category AC repair is beyond unit capacity, thats clear. So was it transferred to RSU/MU/factory sometime after 24.06.44, repaired there and returned to 610 Sqd or afterwards directly reassigned to 350 Sqd. Or was it repaired on site by 350 Sqd at 22.02.45, or is the ros entry related to a second accident? This is all but unambiguous. huh.gif


Edited by rel4y

Cougar, CH and Saitek PnP hall sensor kits + shift registers: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=220916

 

Shapeways store for DIY flight simming equipment and repair: https://www.shapeways.com/shops/rel4y-diy-joystick-flight-simming

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OK, so lets take RB152 as example.

 

FF 3-12-43 39MU 27-12-43 610S 14-2-44 AST 8-5-44 'Gem' mods 610S CAC ops 24-6-44 ros 350S 22-2-45 CAC ops 28-2-45 130S 5-4-45 3BRU CE 23-11-46

 

610S CAC ops 24-6-44 -> So, with 610 Sqd the ac during operations sustained category AC damage on 24.06.44.

 

Next entry is: ros 350S 22-2-45 -> On 22.02.45 the ac was repaired on site by 350 Sqd.

 

How is this correctly interpreted? Category AC repair is beyond unit capacity, thats clear. So was it transferred to RSU/MU/factory sometime after 24.06.44, repaired there and returned to 610 Sqd or afterwards directly reassigned to 350 Sqd. Or was it repaired on site by 350 Sqd at 22.02.45, or is the ros entry related to a second accident? This is all but unambiguous. huh.gif

 

See RAF Repair Categories WW 2

 

The entry should read as follows: 610S CAC ops 24-6-44 ros, then 350S 22-2-45 CAC ops 28-2-45 :

 

thus, RB152 was damaged - possibly on the same day - and repaired on site by an outside repair unit on June 24, 1944: on 22 Feb '45, it had been transferred to 350 Sqn directly from 610 Sqn.


Edited by Friedrich-4/B
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Some go too far in speaking against that site.

Indeed they do, particularly certain people who run a "rival" website

 

...And than posting 200 accounts of spitfire pilots shooting down german planes .And no german account or far too few of germans doing the same to the british planes.

 

What's interesting about all these complaints that the site is biased, is that not one of the complainants has actually demonstrated that oodles of German combat reports &/etc can be found in - say - the Bundesarchiv, to redress the purported bias, nor have any of the complainants ever offered to help by going to the time and considerable expense involved in digging out any such documents and posting them on the net, for the rest of us to download for free. :music_whistling:

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It would be lovely if someone could just list Spitfire XIV air to air victories against Luftwaffe manned planes between January -september instead of dubious alternate history snippets from long discredited revisonist sites.

 

You need "Fighter Command War Diaries" volumes 4 and 5 by John Foreman for that :)

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What's interesting about all these complaints that the site is biased, is that not one of the complainants has actually demonstrated that oodles of German combat reports &/etc can be found in - say - the Bundesarchiv, to redress the purported bias, nor have any of the complainants ever offered to help by going to the time and considerable expense involved in digging out any such documents and posting them on the net, for the rest of us to download for free. :music_whistling:

 

Fortunately, one can justifiably criticize a published work without having to redress its omissions himself.:smilewink:

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Fortunately, one can justifiably criticize a published work without having to redress its omissions himself.:smilewink:

Fortunately, one can also justifiably criticize the critics for making accusations of bias, when the critics don't seem to understand the processes involved in finding and posting German combat reports etc. It takes dedication, lots of hard work and stacks of money - even so, there's no guarantee that such documents will actually be found and/or made available to the public.

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