Operation "Blue Flag" - 24/7 PvP Campaign - ROUND 8

[microvax]

If you want to simulate a gaming environment then by all means it's a great idea but I don't think BS are trying to do that. If you understand how real world airforces operate you'd know that it is not done with solo aircraft operating on their own while the rest of the airforce works together with different systems, C3, link-16, datalink, comms etc. Having a high power airforce getting foreign aircraft up and running on the same day in the middle of a war without any training and zero integration sounds pretty daft to me.

 

Ahh now I get what you mean. Yeah by "real" standard its a daft Idea. :lol:

 

Was more of a campaign feature comparing to the style of, Units respawning out of nothing, helicopters carrying something like 80 tons of cargo, 5 guys instantly rebuilding a FARP.

 

:) But yeah not one of my best Ideas. :D Seeing all the people which wouldnt like it I think we trash that one. :D

[Fedduk]

The possible solution to the imbalance in the number of pilots might be in restricting the time when the frontline can be pushed to the prime time (say, 6 hours a day (with 1 restart in the middle) with the most pilots online), while all other time aviation activity on front will be restricted to strikes on the supply bases, search&rescue and things like that. This phase ("preparation phase") must have a direct impact on the "combat phase" - for example, if supply bases during the preparation were destroyed, some airfields and FARPs might have shortage of fuel and/or weapons.

Many scripts from "combat phase" might be cut out for "preparation phase" missions, thus making it lightweight, easier to debug and with potential to implement more interesting features.

[Sierra99]

I think there is another aspect to the player balance issue that's being missed...what type of aircraft were being utilized by the players in the server.

 

Yes there were times when Blue enjoyed massive Air Superiority for an entire server period...and we only managed to take a single base or FARP because the majority of players we had at that time were in Fighters and attack aircraft. GREAT for the morale of the attack pilots and helo drivers but hard to take and hold terrain from 20,000 feet.

 

Why?

 

In my opinion it was due in large part to lack of coordination and direction. Numerous times people checked in on the frequencies listed and asked "what's needed? where?" And were met with silence.

 

Ciribob gave us a powerful tool with Simple Radio and a look at the web app indicated Simple Radio was obviously being used...But it was also obvious after about the first week that the default Blue Flag frequencies were NOT the frequencies being used.

 

Go ahead and tell me I'm wrong...But at one point I counted 21 blue team players on Simple Radio and never heard a sound on any of the simple radio frequencies listed except for people checking in looking for guidance. Since many had the same squadron tags, it's not a hard to figure out what was happening. Sorry guys, this isn't how it's done in the real world. "GCI up on freq X" means GCI up on freq X. Not "lets go to our own frequency and do our own thing".

 

 

Sierra

[Fedduk]

I think there is another aspect to the player balance issue that's being missed...what type of aircraft were being utilized by the players in the server.

 

Honestly most of the time the number of the most capable fighters (su-27 and F-15) in the air was equal, at least in prime time. There were a lot of blue pilots who was like "Hey, I bought that new shiny F-5, I never touched the manual but I'll go and fly online, what can possibly go wrong?"

Also Mirage has really low time on target, its is usually out of missiles after the first, maybe second engagement.

Many A-10C pilots (like myself) are inexperienced, which is understandable, given complexity of the module. A-10A is useless attacking FARPs cause AGMs just snap on the helipads, so there is no way to lock anything except them.

UH-1 and SA342 are much less capable A2G platforms that Ka-50 and A-10C sometimes is a suicide option, it just cant hide between buildings. So realistically it was not that easy to capture points even with the fighter superiority.

[ike444]

I got to signup and play the first of this Blueflag series and it was so much fun. I had to get ready for some new teaching work I do, I finally get a break and play blue flag and it's like this... It has only gotten better :thumbup: The NATO v RU stylings were perfect for my iffless F-5 (I'm sure I can deal with just calling people to "declare" in the future if it's another way in the future don't worry), comm arrays give the backbone GCI's a nice boost and the ED fixes to plane position during lag were just in time.

 

Some US Navy fighters feel like they're right at the edge of the pipeline with their Link 4A and Link16 n stuff they'll have; however, I have absolute faith in you guys to figure out how you'll make balance work for everyone. But you know, coming to bridges, crossing them, and what-not.

 

For now I'm just interested in what you guys have in store, lots of people have been recommending player limits, A-AF's, and Navy's. I'm up to try it all, everything you guys have done so far has been amazing.

 

For me Blueflag is simply the best part of DCS, keep it up and uh, go blues!

[QuiGon]

In my opinion it was due in large part to lack of coordination and direction. Numerous times people checked in on the frequencies listed and asked "what's needed? where?" And were met with silence.

 

This!

 

I wish there would be a dedicated commander role, who requests and directs all kind of assets to where they're needed which is different than a GCI.

Edited August 17, 2016 by QuiGon

[Voodooflies]

This!

 

I wish there would be a dedicated commander role, who requests and directs all kind of assets to where they needed which is different than a GCI.

 

I do like the idea.

 

Also IF possible big IF AAR tankers one each on either side or would this not work?

 

That would be the cherry on the cake.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Sacha

[Coxy_99]

I do like the idea.

 

 

 

That would be the cherry on the cake.

 

Would save so much time would need to protect it would keep fighters off the deck, Even more better than A.I bombers i reckon :)

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

But then the reds would need the su33 am both tankers would be prime targets for high flying cap or loners looking for an easy meal. I like the idea of a commander and the AAR but tbh in an open dynamic capaign server unless there is some rules and regulations that you must abide by I don't see it working out very well in all likely hood.

 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

[Panhead]

this isn't how it's done in the real world.

I have to disagree. Not all conflicts are the huge coalitions seen in recent years. Participants did have their own controlling entities, and outside of very granular objectives, communication is in the form of the next day's recon photos.

 

Not to say the way you describe it wouldn't be ideal. Additionally, it is frustrating for the few people in general comms who crave order and a coordinated effort. I get that. I've been there.

 

However, speaking from my squadron's point of view, when we put together a strike package/operational plan, we attempt to coordinate with the current GCI to let them know we are active and we are doing x. Sure, there have been a few instances of us not communicating with GCI due to either our own fault, or there not being one available at the moment we begin our operation.

 

Nine times out of ten, we are in general comms/SR freq's and integrated with our side. But, when we are alone, we try to at least let GCI know what is up. Just because a person sees us muted, doesn't mean we are excluding the side we are playing for - we just happen to be not telling everyone what we are doing.

 

Additionally, for this round (blue), there were only a few steady GCIs (maybe 7-8), and four of them came from my squadron.

 

EDIT 0905EST: Sorry, I feel I need to justify/clarify a point made above.

RE: Planning. When we create a plan, there is a lot more involved than just "You guys in F15s go here and the A10s will go there". We actually have time tables, comms plans, planned ordinance expenditures, fuel needs, defined zones of controls, backup aircraft on the deck, etc. It typically takes us 1/2 of the prior round to plan, and nearly 1/3 of the new round to get the ball rolling. In this time, we have to revise the plan based on unplanned disconnections, target areas no longer valid, etc. We also take into account the number of airframes we have and plan accordingly. To add random people to a plan would be almost impossible.

 

Granted, we have only done this two or three times, and we have failed miserably, but within our squad we can tell people to STFU and take it... But there is no way I'm going to ask a random guy on the server to not slot up in the slot I want him in and wait 45 minutes to take off.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Panhead

[Jugdriver]

This!

 

I wish there would be a dedicated commander role, who requests and directs all kind of assets to where they're needed which is different than a GCI.

 

A "live" commander would be a huge boost, but I think coordination via the Buddy Spike forum in the Blue side HQ would go a long ways as well.

 

JD

AKA_MattE

Edited August 17, 2016 by Jugdriver

[Michi]

Was a fun round for sure! Look forward to the next one for sure, spent most of this round in the gazelle and it was quite enjoyable.

[Sierra99]

I have to disagree. Not all conflicts are the huge coalitions seen in recent years. Participants did have their own controlling entities, and outside of very granular objectives, communication is in the form of the next day's recon photos.

 

While participants may have their own controlling agencies, there is ALWAYS some sort of unified command and control. both on the ground prior to a mission and in-flight during a mission. Real combat is extremely fluid and communications are NOT "the next days recon photos". Sorry. That's not how it works.

 

Coordination was missing for a good part of the last round. First week, it worked somewhat as it should considering SR was in its infancy. GCIs were broadcasting on a common freq, individual groups were working their own freqs and SA was pretty good. Second week. GCI got pretty thin but LOTS of people were working SR on their own...Just like old times with private channels in Teamspeak. SA went in the toilet and the same old mistakes the existed prior to Simple Radio crept back into the mix.

 

EDIT 0905EST: Sorry, I feel I need to justify/clarify a point made above. RE: Planning. When we create a plan, there is a lot more involved than just "You guys in F15s go here and the A10s will go there". We actually have time tables, comms plans, planned ordinance expenditures, fuel needs, defined zones of controls, backup aircraft on the deck, etc. It typically takes us 1/2 of the prior round to plan, and nearly 1/3 of the new round to get the ball rolling. In this time, we have to revise the plan based on unplanned disconnections, target areas no longer valid, etc. We also take into account the number of airframes we have and plan accordingly. To add random people to a plan would be almost impossible.

 

Granted, we have only done this two or three times, and we have failed miserably, but within our squad we can tell people to STFU and take it... But there is no way I'm going to ask a random guy on the server to not slot up in the slot I want him in and wait 45 minutes to take off.

 

You illustrate my point perfectly. Ciribob has provided a powerful tool...and its being used no differently than Teamspeak was. And while what you describe is a more realistic approach than most take to a blue flag mission...in the real world the planning and coordinating you're describing takes place several hours prior to stepping to the Jet...Not sitting in the cockpit. There is a basic plan and THAT plan gets adjusted as necessary...You don't delay an entire strike package because an airplane "maintenance aborts". (Disconnects) You adapt, Overcome and continue the mission.

 

Finally, I believe you underestimate the caliber of people flying Blue Flag and DCS in general. Not everyone climbs in, fires up and launches into the fray without a plan. Yes there are some. However, I have sat on the ground ready to takeoff numerous times and waited for someone who just joined to pre-flight and get started so we could work as a team. Assuming someone who's not in your squadron wont voluntarily accept an assignment when asked is kinda arrogant. Who knows..

 

You might be excluding your next member.

 

Sierra

[FraserNZL]

Hi guys just asking if there is a ping limit on this server as mine is roughly 350 as I'm in nz and me and some lads would love to play on what looks to be a fun and amazing server

[Panhead]

Assuming someone who's not in your squadron wont voluntarily accept an assignment when asked is kinda arrogant. Who knows..

Sierra

Obviously, you misunderstood. Which is to be expected, as I am not the worlds' greatest communicator.

 

I mean:

Hey, RandomPilot... Sit in your cockpit, and on the deck in M Vody for 30-45 minutes because you are the relief. I don't need you wasting fuel and possibly getting engaged. Don't take off until this hack or unless you are scrambled.

 

Why make someone wait? Because it's a timing issue. We need aircraft on station all the time. It works better for us. Maybe not as well as we like - but it works. But I still won't ask someone to do it outside the planned event participants that know going in the risks of thumb twiddling.

 

Understand, now? Arrogance is not intended.

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

Obviously, you misunderstood. Which is to be expected, as I am not the worlds' greatest communicator.

 

I mean:

Hey, RandomPilot... Sit in your cockpit, and on the deck in M Vody for 30-45 minutes because you are the relief. I don't need you wasting fuel and possibly getting engaged. Don't take off until this hack or unless you are scrambled.

 

Why make someone wait? Because it's a timing issue. We need aircraft on station all the time. It works better for us. Maybe not as well as we like - but it works. But I still won't ask someone to do it outside the planned event participants that know going in the risks of thumb twiddling.

 

Understand, now? Arrogance is not intended.

This is what we in HCG tried doing a while back in rd6 but alas not a lot of pilots understand why this is and know how to restrain themselves in a theatre while just rushing head in with no a b or c plan. I applaud you.

 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

[Beeroshima]

This is what we in HCG tried doing a while back in rd6 but alas not a lot of pilots understand why this is and know how to restrain themselves in a theatre while just rushing head in with no a b or c plan. I applaud you.

 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

There was quite a bit of this with us. Timing is huge. Staggering the departure of your package is essential to ensure all elements arrive on station simultaneously, and then having a clearly defined relief package arrive about 10 to 15 minutes after first engagement made us much more effective.

 

Before timing of this kind, it's regular to see the a10s show up, get killed or call for help and get a "we're 50 miles out and on the way" response from their CAP.

 

Also seen was "OK enemy interceptors handled and target zone is closed, where are the helos?"

 

"What helos?"

 

"Shit"

 

 

 

Sent while I should be working instead.

[Reaper6]

(2) Honestly, I'd be more interested in commented pictures. I've seen screenshots where someone would say, "Alright so we want to go here [MS Paint mark on ABRIS] and here are three possible routes through the city that we can see right in front of us [more MS Paint lines]." It was a great way to communicate what you would probably describe as "everyone can see that" to people not used to looking at the terrain like that. Video content is a lot more effort and (I feel) often doesn't necessarily convey any more information.

 

I tried to get a general screenshot of my ABRIS prior to making an attack. I will try to describe what I put and hopefully it will help.

 

Red lines- I use these lines for vectors of possible enemy aircraft. I draw them from enemy airbases but not FARPS. So I know I will be paying attention to this area during my attack for fast movers.

 

Green Lines - I use for vectors of possible enemy chopper routes, not necessairly from enemy FARPs. But from routes I would consider taking myself if I was a enemy Heli.

 

Orange lines - Usually I have a transport Heli (or 2)in tow, so this is the line he will not cross until all air defenses are taken out.

 

Yellow lines - This line I use as a guide mainly. I engage around 10-30m from the ground, not more than 50m So this line is for me to know a safe distance from the target, at 50m AGL without being in radar coverage.

 

Triangle - I use this as a alternate firing position. If I can't engage a target from where I am at less than 50m, I will move there and engage.

 

X - I use for last known enemy aircraft position. RTR- Rotory wing, JET - Fixed wing(if I have time I will instead put A10, F15, etc).

 

The house labeled "1" is your Ingress point, from where you will launch your attack. When I am at the waypoint before my IP, I will scan that area and find a building, house whatever I can hide behind. Lock the object in the Shkval and make it your IP. From there you can select that point, and press Ingress to Target. This will give you distance in the bottom of your HUD, and makes for better situational awareness. Where you mark your attack waypoint on the ABRIS map, may not be the best attack position, so that is why I use this.

 

While moving into the target area scan for all targets, and mark them accordingly in the Datalink. I generally make the "house type" which is Air Defense, my most lethal of the targets, EWR, Tunguska, etc. The "Diamond type" which is Armor, I will use for AAA, or less lethal SAMs. The "box type" which is for Other, I use for targets that are easily killed with guns or rockets. There have been situations where I have used all 3 types for all the Air Defenses because there is so many.

 

It's very easy when you cycle thru all your datalink targets to just kill one right after the other. Erasing them off your ABRIS as you go, so you dont get confised what you have killed and what you havent. You can select "Ingress to Target" and press uncage Shkval and your Shkval will slew directly at that target.

 

You may also notice on the Right side of the ABRIS in the middle there is BHAB. This is for your planned altitude, USE THIS! input this along with your waypoints, VNAV is also useful. You will notice the two green lines are lined up in the middle of the graph, this is what you want around 50m AGL. If you are higher than that, you are too high!

 

Anyway, hope this helps a little for the KA50 pilots. This is just some random mission I used not a "Blue Flag" mission. My ABRIS in BF is nearly covered by the end of the attack. I generally use the ARC page instead of the MAP page because the lines are more visible and not confused with MAP lines. Easy enough to switch between the two. Also Keep in mind I am using Cougar MFDs to navigate ABRIS. So using your mouse and clicking buttons etc will probablly take longer than it takes me.

 

Reaper6

[Panhead]

I tried to get a general screenshot of my ABRIS prior to making an attack. I will try to describe what I put and hopefully it will help.

[ATTACH]146588[/ATTACH]

 

Red lines- I use these lines for vectors of possible enemy aircraft. I draw them from enemy airbases but not FARPS. So I know I will be paying attention to this area during my attack for fast movers.

 

Green Lines - I use for vectors of possible enemy chopper routes, not necessairly from enemy FARPs. But from routes I would consider taking myself if I was a enemy Heli.

 

Orange lines - Usually I have a transport Heli (or 2)in tow, so this is the line he will not cross until all air defenses are taken out.

 

Yellow lines - This line I use as a guide mainly. I engage around 10-30m from the ground, not more than 50m So this line is for me to know a safe distance from the target, at 50m AGL without being in radar coverage.

 

Triangle - I use this as a alternate firing position. If I can't engage a target from where I am at less than 50m, I will move there and engage.

 

X - I use for last known enemy aircraft position. RTR- Rotory wing, JET - Fixed wing(if I have time I will instead put A10, F15, etc).

 

The house labeled "1" is your Ingress point, from where you will launch your attack. When I am at the waypoint before my IP, I will scan that area and find a building, house whatever I can hide behind. Lock the object in the Shkval and make it your IP. From there you can select that point, and press Ingress to Target. This will give you distance in the bottom of your HUD, and makes for better situational awareness. Where you mark your attack waypoint on the ABRIS map, may not be the best attack position, so that is why I use this.

 

While moving into the target area scan for all targets, and mark them accordingly in the Datalink. I generally make the "house type" which is Air Defense, my most lethal of the targets, EWR, Tunguska, etc. The "Diamond type" which is Armor, I will use for AAA, or less lethal SAMs. The "box type" which is for Other, I use for targets that are easily killed with guns or rockets. There have been situations where I have used all 3 types for all the Air Defenses because there is so many.

 

It's very easy when you cycle thru all your datalink targets to just kill one right after the other. Erasing them off your ABRIS as you go, so you dont get confised what you have killed and what you havent. You can select "Ingress to Target" and press uncage Shkval and your Shkval will slew directly at that target.

 

You may also notice on the Right side of the ABRIS in the middle there is BHAB. This is for your planned altitude, USE THIS! input this along with your waypoints, VNAV is also useful. You will notice the two green lines are lined up in the middle of the graph, this is what you want around 50m AGL. If you are higher than that, you are too high!

 

Anyway, hope this helps a little for the KA50 pilots. This is just some random mission I used not a "Blue Flag" mission. My ABRIS in BF is nearly covered by the end of the attack. I generally use the ARC page instead of the MAP page because the lines are more visible and not confused with MAP lines. Easy enough to switch between the two. Also Keep in mind I am using Cougar MFDs to navigate ABRIS. So using your mouse and clicking buttons etc will probablly take longer than it takes me.

 

Reaper6

 

brilliant. need me some mfds.

[IASGATG]

Greg, you got the stats yet or what mate?

[COLTROGUE]

Just because a person sees us muted, doesn't mean we are excluding the side we are playing for - we just happen to be not telling everyone what we are doing.

 

From the times I was working as C2 (or just trying to monitor 264 while some wingmen and I worked our own plans as well), thank you so much for not announcing every missile, turn, startup, etc.

 

If everyone would ask themselves (before they speak), "Does anyone on this frequency even care at all what I'm about to announce to the world?" life would be much better for C2/GCI, and all who are monitoring. For example, Hogs and Eagles can't talk in SR except via 264 (or equivalent) so it would be good if the CAP were engaging w/n 15nm, that they announce as such so the hogs are aware. Once they've made the announcement, the Hogs can reduce their SA in that direction and focus on the strike, and they don't need to know about every missile launch, where you're turning, etc. Let C2 elements coordinate that when available, rather than tell everyone "He's banking left!" Thank goodness for SR "forcing" the use of a whisper-equilavent, and thank you to all who tried (and mostly succeeded) in using it properly. There are still plenty of people who love to tell stories on any and all freqs, but it is getting much, much better. (Thanks Ciribob!)

 

TL|DR - keep it to 8 seconds or less, and only if there is someone on the freq who needs to know, and there's no other freq you can tell them on. Listen, instead, and focus on building SA, and all will be right with the Blues.

[hikikomori]

Nice work Blue Team!

And thanks to red team, it's an honor to fly with you!

 

I would like to thank the team of buddyspike for the great job and I would like to suggest something that I think would enhance the reality and the role of gci .

Changing the forward observer slot with slot A50 and E3 (escorted or not) so gci would work only when awacs flying.

[gregzagk]

Wow many feature requests :D

 

The 9th round concept along with our other moves will be finalised in the upcoming days.

The guys currently work on Simple Radio & Online map setup along with other stuff in the background.

 

For now we uploaded new mission files of Blue Flag that help us testing until we prepare things and mostly to have fun.

This is not the final concept of the 9th round though and it will propably change (small changes or completely depending on our final discussions).

 

Changelog of the current mission setup:

- Mirage 2000C moved to Red side. (India joined the war :D, NATO vs RUSSIA concept remains the same except of the Mirage change.)

- Replaced SA-8 groups with SA-3 SAM sites

- Dogfight missiles only available

- Cluster bombs (CBU-52/ MK-20/ RBK/ CBU-87) available again

- LGB Guided bombs removed

- Replaced the building (Barracks) in the airbases with 6x Armed houses

- Changed time of day (the night mission is replaced with a dusk one for better dogfighting)

- Added fuel trucks to Red FARPs

- Added 2nd Mi-8 to Beslan

 

As said before this is not close to the final concept. Let's get in for some dogfights :)

*Side selection reseted. You can select your side again.

 

Greg

Edited August 18, 2016 by gregzagk

[Finnsky]

This sounds awesome! Only short-range missiles will be interesting. I recently flew on the open conflict server with an IR only setting and it was incredible fun. Now I am happier than ever that I am Redfor, we will actually have a round where Red could have the CAP advantage.

[T_A]

- Mirage 2000C moved to Red side. (India joined the war :D, NATO vs RUSSIA concept

 

I was gonna be all like "WTF!?"

but then i was like "meh, time to switch sides"

 

:pilotfly:

 

 

p.s

if no Fox 3 was good for Mirage , only Fox 2 is even better!