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A-10 stall behaviour in DCS is incorrect


SCU

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Call me an ass, but here's a good video with inside and outside with airspeeds...

 

 

Try going 410kts in near level flight in the DCS A-10...I don't think you can go that fast in a straight dive from 30,000 feet...let alone any where near level flight during a typical American summer...

Where can you see he's going 410kn IAS?
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Try going 410kts in near level flight in the DCS A-10...I don't think you can go that fast in a straight dive from 30,000 feet...let alone any where near level flight during a typical American summer...

 

I got more in straight dives, can't talk about level flight though, haven't tried.

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...let alone any where near level flight during a typical American summer...

 

Also remember that the pilot got to that speed through a dive too not purely through straight & level flight.

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I need a lot of pop-corn...

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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I need a lot of pop-corn...

 

No time to watch the bantering and eat pop-corn Yo-Yo!

 

Made any progress on the Bede BD-5 FM :P

 

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How many users are using Extensions on their Warthogs?

 

The Warthog as it is, does not have the wide range of motion the real A-10 Stick does, w/ Extension it's A LOT Easier for me to turn without over pitching.

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I did a quick video that was OK, using my CH stick, need some practice.

 

Be nice when I get the VKB gunfighter pro with it's 20cm (8″) Stick Extension, should make it much easier.

 

 

..

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How many users are using Extensions on their Warthogs?

 

The Warthog as it is, does not have the wide range of motion the real A-10 Stick does, w/ Extension it's A LOT Easier for me to turn without over pitching.

Well not me, it's still irrelevant when I have shown the pilot in real life pulling the stick well past the stall warn.

 

I might buy me one of those popcorn makers, just need some corn :lol:

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Another variable is that IRL airframes are not all the same. Some will drop a wing at a higher AOA than others , some have more thrust. Could just be that your video is of an atypical airframe, tho honestly I still think lack of Airframe feedback is way bigger factor.

 

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Another variable is that IRL airframes are not all the same.

Agreed, but it's irrelevant here since the A-10 in DCS is always a brand new one, so they all behave like a new airframe.

 

Some will drop a wing at a higher AOA than others

 

You don't know that, give me one source where it says that

 

Could just be that your video is of an atypical airframe.

 

I have another one where the pilot does the same, it's in Iraq, he's coming from high altitude for a virtually vertical strafe (like 80 degrees), I posted that in this very thread before and I based the same argument on it then. Will you say it's an atypical airframe too?

 

 

PS: glad to know all the fresh popcorn won't be wasted xd.

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without the extension, it's easier to move the stick from pole to pole a lot quicker, making it easier to stall.

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This morning i did a 12° dive from 11,500 feet, full throttle, 20% fuel, no gun ammo or flares/chaff, temp 20°C. I reached 402kts before I had to pull out of the dive.

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You don't know that, give me one source where it says that

 

There are differences between airframes even when brand new. Any pilot who's flown several of a type can tell you that.

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Somewhere a dead horse is screaming.

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There are differences between airframes even when brand new. Any pilot who's flown several of a type can tell you that.

The bold parts man, I already said I agree on that part.

 

And the horse isn't dead yet, it's something broken that can be fixed but for some reason the guys who can fixed it completely refuse..

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Another variable is that IRL airframes are not all the same. Some will drop a wing at a higher AOA than others , some have more thrust. Could just be that your video is of an atypical airframe, tho honestly I still think lack of Airframe feedback is way bigger factor.

 

 

I agree,

 

It's the IRL body and control feel when near the edge of envelope, I've talked with a DHC-8 pilot that have 1000s of hours just like you WindyTX in different aircraft and asked how good is the Q400 in the other civi sim, considering they used the NASA Flight Dynamics Engine outside of these civi sims to get the flight model more accurate for the majestic Q400 pilot training, the developers of the Q400 build full size sims too.

 

The pilot used the sim to help him get his type rating for the DHC-8.

 

He said it was very accurate for systems, power, flight model, climb and descent rate. He said It still lacked that feel when flying close to the edge of envelope. It's just different without the feel through the controls and body after 1000s of hours flying, you just don't get that in a sim. I'm guessing you too would agree with this WindyTX, with all your flying experience.

 

The bold parts man, I already said I agree on that part.

 

And the horse isn't dead yet, it's something broken that can be fixed but for some reason the guys who can fixed it completely refuse..

 

Not refuse, you have to 100% convince Yo-Yo it needs fixing, playing with something like this could take months and months, the FM's are all connected, change one thing, change another 3 and we are talking about 100s of parameters that would change all the other parts of the flight performance.

 

I posted what goes into these FM's way back HERE so others can get an idea of what's involved in these FM's.

 

A good example here is RAZBAM'S Mirage 2000 update.

 

Hi all, haven't posted in a while so wanted to provide an update on where we are at with the flight model updates.

 

We got the performance very close to where it should be, but at some point found that the feel and control behavior just wasn't what we hoped for. I spent a few weeks going back and forth with the testers tweaking the FBW solution but never found a good solution. A week or so ago,I finally decided to overhaul the FBW system with a new approach to modeling it since we realized the old way just would not get us to where we wanted to be. I am very happy to say that the testers are extremely satisfied with the new feel and behavior and are in the final tweaks of having that portion corrected.

 

Unfortunately, now that underlying feel is close to correct, we will have to reevaluate and update any unintended changes made to the resultant performance values. I don't quite have a definite estimate on completion, but want to let you all know that the work is ongoing and definitely making very good progress. I'll do my best to keep you all updated as we get closer to completion.

 

ED would have the flight performance data for the A10, just like they have the correct data for the engines. Please don't bring up the engine ITT from the IRL manual, without the full engineers report on how and why, the ITT is what it is in the manual, there is absolutely nothing to change here, unless you have complete access to this data so ED can see what needs to change, the A-10 thrust performance is still correct with the ITT on this new engine.

 

You haven't convince me or others here that ED needs to spend Big dollars trying to fix something, the performance parameters across the flight model are accurate, the stall behavior and feeling it's out, comes down to not having full size accurate controls, lack of aircraft feeling through the body and also through the controls.

 

 

.


Edited by David OC
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I believe there is a fair bit of misunderstanding here, probably most of it comes from me & English not being my native language, both in interpreting others and putting my own thoughts into words, and I sincerely apologize for this, it's very time consuming both for me and the participants, but I'm trying the best I can to understand others, and make myself clear. *sigh*..

 

At this point I'm just repeating stuff I've said before, just in slightly different ways, and I have been for quite some time now. But it's okey as long as we get to some form of agreement in the end, but I digress...

 

I agree,

 

It's the IRL body and control feel when near the edge of envelope, I've talked with a DHC-8 pilot that have 1000s of hours...

 

...He said It still lacked that feel when flying close to the edge of envelope. It's just different without the feel through the controls and body after 1000s of hours flying, you just don't get that in a sim. I'm guessing you too would agree with this WindyTX, with all your flying experience...

 

... the stall behavior and feeling it's out, comes down to not having full size accurate controls, lack of aircraft feeling through the body and also through the controls.

 

I believe I fully understand this, even more so with multiple people mentioning it every now and then, I never denied the fact, nor ignored it. I appreciate the input, however I don't know if it's hard for me to put this clearly or if it's hard for people to understand it or if they ignore it every time I say it or I'm just simply stupid (the most probable): Two footages at least (IIRC there are a couple more) show an A-10 pilot willingly pull the jet --and yes his body and mind sense the plane, the vibrations of the fuselage & the stick, the increased forces on the stick, buffeting.. etc. while doing that-- more than a couple of degrees (depending on which video we're talking about) after & through the dreaded chopped stall tone (beep beep beep), & that's actual degrees not units. Again for god knows how many times, this ain't possible in DCS. This (the fact that it ain't possible in DCS) is evidenced by many people informing me that I'm sitting comfortablly at home pulling my less-than-real-cockpit-precision control stick, forcing me to inadvertently 'overshoot' my careful balancing of the steady and choppy stall tones which makes me wing drop in the first place, even though the real pilots willingly and fully awarely are doing the same thing and more (teh videos) without any wing drop at all.. Get it?

 

Not refuse, you have to 100% convince Yo-Yo it needs fixing, playing with something like this could take months and months, the FM's are all connected, change one thing, change another 3 and we are talking about 100s of parameters that would change all the other parts of the flight performance.

 

You can say the same to anyone making any other bug report. How many bug reports require changing that many parameters or lines of code? I don't know but this one is probably no different than some others reported and fixed. And I don't know if fixing something like this would require as much work as you say, less or more, only YoYo or someone from ED can say. I would understand if YoYo came out & said "Sorry SCU, but your issue would require too much work & money and a lot could go wrong, and not a lot of people are requesting this fix" to which I would probably reply "No problem man, but inform me if some day you will afford to fix it" or something, but instead I get this "You aren't doing this right", "You shouldn't be doing that", "No you're wrong", almost ignoring the arguments I made (not strictly talking about YoYo here, I have nothing personal). The only thing that keep me going is the same thing that keeps a business man going: investment; I invested so much time & effort to this thread (too much, I'm afraid) to quit (which I surely will, soon enough), but then again the whole sim is an investment of time, I just chose to spend part of it on the sim's forums for a bit lolz.

 

Please don't bring up the engine ITT from the IRL manual

I have nothing to say about this subject, literally. I haven't really discussed in the A-10 Engines thread at all, just checked it out, but have no position on it whatsoever.

 

(To anyone who thinks this is a long winded argument, you're dam right it is.. That's what the forums are for right? Right?!)

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I'm all for you having your say (opinion) here, what we are talking about is on the knife edge of simulation, I think this simulation would be as good as a real A10 sim needs to be for a proficiency check and It's still, 2010 the best fully modeled jet sim in the market today, including it's flight model.

 

I posted RAZBAM'S example, so you get the idea this is not easy to play with the FM's and something like this could take hundreds of hours with testing in between and perhaps end up much worse somewhere else in the parameters. There is a very very fine line to balance on here, that can change many parameters if lightly bumped.

 

The ITT was not pointed at you SCU, just another thorn in ED's a...

 

It's my opinion that this would be a waste of ED's time playing with this razor edge flight regime, even if it was slightly out when all the other pentameters are good and it's that close that it's very hard to even tell if it could be out?

 

Anyway it doesn't effect my enjoyment of this cRazy realistic simulated aircraft, never flown a real A10 and never will, so I will learn to get the most out of what I have here and it should be much better when I get my new stick.

 

 

.

razor.jpg.ea5298aa484bff78287ae422e32236c7.jpg


Edited by David OC

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Hmm, I would agree with you here if this was a fast moving jet, but this is the warthog; it's low & it's slow, it gets near this "razor edge" regime all the time, it's just that there are many timid users around here, but also many that are on the line with me, seen some posts from the early stages of A-10C, there were loads of people who made my observation but it seems that this kind of observation is destined for either overlooking or plain refusal.. But yah, apart from the early stages and some obserers here are there, it seems I'm the only one intrested in this near-stall region, which is very weird for me, I imagined the vast majority of those who play A-10 to notice this thing and jump on my wagon, especially us simmers who are less careful with their flight sticks than experienced and trained fighter pilots and more prone to pull a lot more than they are.. lo and behold, the opposite seems to be true, lol.

 

I enjoy this aircraft as much as you, probably more. I have the exact same opinion as you in the regards of realistic and amazing it is, that's why it's a shame for me to have those loose ends hanging, including the subject of this thread. But yeah, with both of us clinging to our opinions, unshaken, we could go on and on forever at this rate, so it's better to agree to disagree.

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