Anybody else notice some significant changes to the way the K-4 handles

[karlmeyer25]

...some significant changes to the way the K-4 handles? I just took it out on the 4v4 and 8v8 single player missions and wow, the aircraft nearly seemed totally different. No where near as dominant as it felt just last night!

 

Am I the only one? Is this more "correct?"

 

-SLACK

[HiJack]

You are dreaming :lol:

[DarkRaiderss]

Slack, your not wrong. The plane feels all over the place making it very hard to line up shots. There was a change in the last update and its as follows for the 109:

 

DCS Bf 109 K-4

Electrical gauges will depend of electric power

Reworked control surfaces deflection saturation to a clamping behaviour

Fixed surface degradation upon detachment of control surfaces, redesigned axis-driven elevator trim behaviour

Added zero tick to trim scale

 

What they mean by reworked control surfaces is unknown to me.

[Solty]

I think it is just this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clamping_(graphics)

"In computer graphics, clamping is the process of limiting a position to an area. Unlike warping, clamping merely moves the point to the nearest available value."

 

If the FM changed realy, it would be kinda wierd that it did after beeing "released" two weeks ago. Unless they found some new info.

 

Anyway, I would presume it depends on the speed of the airplane. At high speed the 109 is stiffer so it becomes more stable, but some pilots said it behaves like a glider at lower speeds, so that might mean a bit more unstable.

 

It would be nice to see a vid, so we can at least see how looks like? I presume its on the beta update? Because I have not noticed any new patches for stable 1.5

Edited September 10, 2016 by Solty

[shagrat]

ALL versions were patched yesterday. Release, Beta and Alpha/Nevada

[shagrat]

And yes, the Bf.109 behaves different... Not sure yet how this reflects flying after getting used to, muscle memory adjusted etc.

 

I noticed at least, that I much more found myself at uncomfortable near stall speeds and close to snap rolls, than before... but I'm not the best prop plane pilot. ;)

[karlmeyer25]

Slack, your not wrong. The plane feels all over the place making it very hard to line up shots. There was a change in the last update and its as follows for the 109:

 

DCS Bf 109 K-4

Electrical gauges will depend of electric power

Reworked control surfaces deflection saturation to a clamping behaviour

Fixed surface degradation upon detachment of control surfaces, redesigned axis-driven elevator trim behaviour

Added zero tick to trim scale

 

What they mean by reworked control surfaces is unknown to me.

 

Hey DarkRaiders, glad to see I wasn't crazy. I followed what you wrote on all the other threads. I might add in a curve as well into my 109 settings.

 

Does the handling now feel more like Il-2 BoS/BoM's 109 FM's? There seems to be quite a bit of pitch over control in their implementations of the 109.

 

Food for thought and I'm going to check out your videos to see how you're handling it!

 

-SLACK

[eekz]

They've made stick load as on other planes. It's now always 1 to 1 movement of virtual stick and real joystick regardless of speed. Before, with speed increase you had to move real joystick all it's range to cover virtual joystick range limited by stick load. It generated a dynamic curve which depended on speed resulting to improper real stick movement.

[DarkRaiderss]

Hey DarkRaiders, glad to see I wasn't crazy. I followed what you wrote on all the other threads. I might add in a curve as well into my 109 settings.

 

Does the handling now feel more like Il-2 BoS/BoM's 109 FM's? There seems to be quite a bit of pitch over control in their implementations of the 109.

 

Food for thought and I'm going to check out your videos to see how you're handling it!

 

-SLACK

 

I don't like using a curve but it helped. I didn't play the Il-2 series that much so I can't compare that. The only vid I have is from last night and I handled it with much cursing and complaints. As pointed out in another thread the slats are not, at least visually, deploying. I was having significant left wing drop as if I was stalling it so maybe they were not physically deploying either.

[karlmeyer25]

I don't like using a curve but it helped. I didn't play the Il-2 series that much so I can't compare that. The only vid I have is from last night and I handled it with much cursing and complaints. As pointed out in another thread the slats are not, at least visually, deploying. I was having significant left wing drop as if I was stalling it so maybe they were not physically deploying either.

 

I've also noticed the MW-50 isn't keeping the engine as cool as it used to, and also it feels like the aircraft doesn't recover E as fast as it used to. Have you noticed that too?

 

It's still pretty dominant though. I so far have still managed to win every aerial engagement....but I have to admit, its a bit harder and I don't feel as invincible as I used to.

 

-SLACK

[DarkRaiderss]

I've also noticed the MW-50 isn't keeping the engine as cool as it used to, and also it feels like the aircraft doesn't recover E as fast as it used to. Have you noticed that too?

 

It's still pretty dominant though. I so far have still managed to win every aerial engagement....but I have to admit, its a bit harder and I don't feel as invincible as I used to.

 

-SLACK

 

Didn't notice any issues with mw50 and I didn't overheat. I felt the energy retention was fine. Other than being wobbly and the wing drops the plane still performed mostly as before. Before adding curve it felt like it could roll better and even with the wing stalls I could still out turn a good turning 51 pilot. My biggest complaint was how I was bouncing all over which made lining up the guns difficult. I of course started to adjust and my aim got better. If this is permanent then it will take a lot of new muscle memory to get back to smooth flying. Watch my stream from last night to see what I mean. I notice something was wrong shorty after my first takeoff. I thought the gear or flaps were still down. :smilewink:

[javelina1]

After seeing this post, I took her up to check. Confirmed, I'm not seeing the slats deploy either. I was doing everything I could to make 'em.

 

No issue with the MW50 for cooling.

 

(I generally don't program curves either. The exception being the Huey module).

[Schnarre Aggro]

i saw a lot of what darkraiderss is saying.

 

no slats

wobbly at lower speeds

wingdrop over left wing when stalling in slowturns

MUCH better rollrate at average and higher speed

much better energie flying( it doesnt bleed off speed as fast as before)

way better responsiveness on the pitch axis

less effective flaps while turning

better turning at slowspeed WITHOUT flaps

 

I didnt do any test - but ive logged "some" hours on the 109 and that was what "I feel that changed"

 

poor ponies ... in my opinion the 109 is the factor 1.25 deadlier than before .... no more getting away with fast scissors :gun_rifle:

[Schnarre Aggro]

hahaha no, you do not want at the moment ;)

 

the AoA of planes are not synced .... planes shoot 20 degrees below your plane and do still hit ;)

from the attackers position he for sure does pull lead... its just not visual for yourself :smartass:

[Art-J]

I don't quite understand what eekz says. One cannot model load limitations on the stick with virtual one matching the real one 1:1 - so either they did revert to some early FM by mistake, or eekz wasn't clear enough in his description. I guess I'll just have to do some flying when I'm back home.

[DefaultFace]

Actually I think what eekz was saying is true. Would make sense with the 'clamping' description in the changelog as well. Essentially it takes your input and if you have more stick movement that the theoretical max displacement at that speed then it just ignores it.

[Art-J]

OK, Your description is more precise, just did a short test flight and that seems to be the case.

 

Although load limits on the stick are still there, as they should, the response below is more direct and swift - I'm happy to see that late pulling out of dives during strafing runs is no longer a recipe for disaster as it used to be in my case :D. A welcomed improvement!

[Solty]

OK, Your description is more precise, just did a short test flight and that seems to be the case.

 

Although load limits on the stick are still there, as they should, the response below is more direct and swift - I'm happy to see that late pulling out of dives during strafing runs is no longer a recipe for disaster as it used to be in my case :D. A welcomed improvement!

Improvment doesn't equal realism. Also it doesn't explain the "improved roll rate" which should not happen. The aircraft according to Schnare is capable of rolling with the P-51D at high speeds, and thats impossible due to how the airplane is made. The control surfaces would stiffen up and stick movment in the cockpit would be impaired by the claustrophobic design which doesn't allow for freedom of movment and pilot had to use both hands to even maneuver, not to mention do combat at high speeds. Unless magic happened. :sorcerer:

Secondly the airplane is said to be less stable and slats do not work, so that must not be right.

[Art-J]

I just say the surfaces still stiffen up as they used to - at least for pitch the treshold where stiffening begins is still ~250 km/h IAS, as previously. Don't know about roll, as I don't do combat flying in this bird, so I don't know anything about correct roll rate and it doesn't bother me. That's what I wanted to check, 'cause I misunderstood previous posts and got impression that stiffening disappeared somehow.

 

It's there allright, but getting to the limit seems to be more linear than in previous version. Which method of modelling control forces for non-FFB joysticks is better - that's a subject for another, neverending, anal discussion with DavidRed, let's better not go there :D.

 

I confirm, however, that slats do not deploy at all. Whether it's only a broken animation issue, or it affects the physics as well, must be confirmed by someone "in the know" (though a noticeable wing drop in stalls suggests it might be the latter case).

[openfalcon68]

Landings are not the same for me after the 9.9.2016 patch.

Just cant land without either wingtip hitting the ground and the aircraft going in that direction.

Nailed only one landing so guess its back to practice or what ?

 

Manish

[gomwolf]

Go home Red. You do not want to fly the Bf109, you want to fly an airplane that makes you better, thats not what DCS is about. Play War Thunder Bf109G2 and you will get what you want.

 

Why this man is so rude to anybody who didn't have same opinion with him? I saw that kinds of situation several times on forum or game.

 

 

 

Whatever, it will not end with this kinds of dicussion, I think.

 

Maybe slat problem is just animation error and instability on this version is proper to Bf109. Mustang fans want this. or Maybe slat problem is not just animation error and instability will be fixed with slat. Bf109 fans like me want this. And both of them just talking what they want. I think, Yo-Yo or FM managers(?) already know this problem and they will fix it soon. Everything I want is... Please ED fix it fast. I believe that you will do it fast.

 

 

 

IMO, I already read change log and I think there is nothing about low speed stability. No airfoil change, No shape changes. Only control surface. If angle of control surface is too high, aircraft will be stall more. However it can control with stick movement and I cannot feel it. So, I think this is slat problem. In middle speed(350~500km/h), it littlebit more wobbling than before, but still not bad. High speed stiffness? I believe ED have more detail information than me.

 

(My English is terrible, please understand it.)

Edited September 12, 2016 by gomwolf

[Cavemanhead]

Really hope this gets worked out. The new behavior is awful. They had it dead nuts on before this most recent patch. I know because I have been known to simply test fly and land the 109 for 4-6 hrs at a time... It's changed and it's lost the beauty it had before...

 

Oh... and the slats don't work...

[Solty]

Why this man is so rude to anybody who didn't have same opinion with him? I saw that kinds of situation several times on forum or game.

 

 

 

Whatever, it will not end with this kinds of dicussion, I think.

 

Maybe slat problem is just animation error and instability on this version is proper to Bf109. Mustang fans want this. or Maybe slat problem is not just animation error and instability will be fixed with slat. Bf109 fans like me want this. And both of them just talking what they want. I think, Yo-Yo or FM managers(?) already know this problem and they will fix it soon. Everything I want is... Please ED fix it fast. I believe that you will do it fast.

 

 

 

IMO, I already read change log and I think there is nothing about low speed stability. No airfoil change, No shape changes. Only control surface. If angle of control surface is too high, aircraft will be stall more. However it can control with stick movement and I cannot feel it. So, I think this is slat problem. In middle speed(350~500km/h), it littlebit more wobbling than before, but still not bad. High speed stiffness? I believe ED have more detail information than me.

 

(My English is terrible, please understand it.)

 

It is not a matter of opinion. If you want to know, I flew bf 109 for years in other sims and I've read a lot about the airplane to describe its behavior, based on test pilot's reports and 109G elevator forces chart.

 

The aircraft controls IRL are pleasant in range of 200-400kph. After take off, to keep it straight you have to use a lot of right rudder, that diminishes with higher speeds, but is still present. The plane at those slower speeds has very good rudder authority and is capable of very good sideslipping angles, quite often used on head on attacks by German pilots.

 

At 400-500 the airplane becomes more stable and controls stiffen up requiring more strength.

 

 

At 550 up to the official safety limit of 750kph the airplane becomes progressively stiffer and at that range you have to use both hands on the stick to even move it. All control surfaces suffer but ailerons especially due to very small cramped cockpit of the 109 which hinders movement of the pilot.

Nearing the official limit the airplane is so stiff that aileron control is gone and only really strong men can pull on the elevator but with little effect. That is why you need horizontal stabilizer trim to get out of dives.

 

The airplane should be a bit unstable at low speeds but sensitive on controls. It is much easier to control pitch than spitfire (because spit is oversensitive) and is nearly equal to elliptical wing spitfire at all speed ranges in roll rate. Rudder authority is fair at all speed ranges due to fletner tab in the K4 model.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Solty

[golani79]

I flew bf 109 for years in other sims and I've read a lot about the airplane to know its behaviour.

 

Ah, and that´s why you are participating in a discussion about changes from one version to another in this sim?

[Solty]

No read the rest of the post to understand what I mean. Look for reports on the internet.

 

I said that i flew it in other sims because somebody above thinks that I just a mustang fanboy that wants to make his 109 worse. He is wrong.

 

Also in no sim the behaviour was perfect but I had DCS 109 up to the point when 109 still didn't have rudder stiffness applied. At that point the aileron and elevator authority seemed to be very close to the airplane behavior described by test pilots.

 

I've changed this part to be more clear so comments like yours do not pop up more.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Solty