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What about the Mirage2000-5 ?


MisterVince

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The -5 is still a frontline fighter in the French Air Force. Moreover the MICA is the main air to air missile used to protect the French airspace. Therefore both the plane and its armament are heavily classified. Unlike the USA, France keep armament data classified even when they are decommissioned. Even older systems like those on board the Mirage III are still officially classified. The DCS M2000C is in this aspect an anomaly. I don't know what kind of agreement, if they have any, Razbam has with Dassault, the DGA... but it's unlikely to be valid if they decide to do a -5.

As for doing a FC3 level aircraft, ED specifically said they don't want a third party or themselves to do that kind of things.

 

what systems are classified?. They must be pretty obscure or not have a big impact on the aircrafts performance, sin Razbam was able to develop for us a functioning Mirage 2000.

 

there is a manual of the M2000C that can be found online. The Mirage 3 and F1 manuals can be found online too, so easily accesible to the public, and not something youd need to sign a NDA to look at.

 

 

if you are Fluent in needed lanugage for a foreign manual ( in this case French) or get a Translator your generally going to have a good chunk of necessary information to make a simulation. IF Dassault got in Razbams way it would have been to due to thier policies of protecting Intellectual propety, Maybe thats why they called it the M2000c, not the Mirage 2000C, due to some copyright laws or intellectual property rights, which implies dassult would not have been too helpful in providing information, especially if it were classified.


Edited by Kev2go

 

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what systems are classified?. They must be pretty obscure or not have a big impact on the aircrafts performance, sin Razbam was able to develop for us a functioning Mirage 2000.

 

there is a manual of the M2000C that can be found online. The Mirage 3 and F1 manuals can be found online too, so easily accesible to the public, and not something youd need to sign a NDA to look at.

 

 

if you are Fluent in needed lanugage for a foreign manual ( in this case French) or get a Translator your generally going to have a good chunk of necessary information to make a simulation. IF Dassault got in Razbams way it would have been to due to thier policies of protecting Intellectual propety, Maybe thats why they called it the M2000c, not the Mirage 2000C, due to some copyright laws or intellectual property rights, which implies dassult would not have been too helpful in providing information, especially if it were classified.

They are officially classified. So if the French state decide to press charges against you because you own document you shouldn't have access too, then it can, it is his right. I shouldn't have to remind you that that not everything on the Internet is legal.

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what systems are classified?. They must be pretty obscure or not have a big impact on the aircrafts performance, sin Razbam was able to develop for us a functioning Mirage 2000.

crucial ones are classified:

radar, cockpit, MFDs, RWR, ECM, radios, countermeasures, datalink, navigation system, weapons

 

I wouldn't want to fly a 2000-5 with these components represented as devs' figments of imagination

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Well, i can officially say that currently there are NO plans for a Mirage 2000-5

 

Thanks, that should be clear enough now :)

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They are officially classified. So if the French state decide to press charges against you because you own document you shouldn't have access too, then it can, it is his right. I shouldn't have to remind you that that not everything on the Internet is legal.

 

firsti dont Own any documents. Thesse doucments are actually legal since they are for public viewing. I wouldnt consider viewing a document online without physically having it in hand or on my hardrive "ownership". documentation sources that ive veiwed are established organizations, that simply preserve documents. so no dont think any legal threats would apply here, becasue they woudlnt be the type to handle illegal classified documentation.

 

 

again how do you think a 3rd party got thier info. I doubt it was a deal Dassult if they werent even allowed to use the Mirage name, but the M designation for M2000c. Again i dont think a Mirage 3 or F1 would be planned for development either if they didnt have an idea of how these systems work or what thier parameters are.


Edited by Kev2go

 

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crucial ones are classified:

radar, cockpit, MFDs, RWR, ECM, radios, countermeasures, datalink, navigation system, weapons

 

I wouldn't want to fly a 2000-5 with these components represented as devs' figments of imagination

 

I wasnt talking about the -5 though.

 

the m2000c, and earlier F1 and M3.

 

finding any concrete info on the -5 is problematic indeed.


Edited by Kev2go

 

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firsti dont Own any documents. Thesse doucments are actually legal since they are for public viewing. I wouldnt consider viewing a document online without physically having it in hand or on my hardrive "ownership". Some sources that ive used (are established organizations, that simply preserve documents. so no dont think any legal threats would apply here, becasue they woudlnt be the type to handle illegal classified documentation

 

 

again how do you think a 3rd party got thier info. I doubt it was Dassult if they werent even allowed to use the Mirage name, but the M designation for M2000c. Again i dont think a Mirage 3 or F1 would be in development if they didnt have an idea of how these systems work or what thier parameters are.

If we are talking about flight manual, then no they are not for public viewing. French fighter design, systems, name and documentation are covered by either intellectual property or state secret.

 

Movies are shared online even if it's illegal. Same thing goes for those flight manual. If you can't understand it then do as you want and think whatever you want. It's not my job to educate and it is not my job to enforce those rules.


Edited by Bacab
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If we are talking about flight manual, then no they are not for public viewing. French fighter design, systems, name and documentation are covered by either intellectual property or state secret.

 

Movies are shared online even if it's illegal. Same thing goes for those flight manual. If you can't understand it then do as you want and think whatever you want. It's not my job to educate, neither it is my job to enforce those rules.

 

 

 

the fact that m2000c has been developed ( even before DCS, Razbam already had the M2000 for FSX) and that there is a F1 being developed by another 3rd party, and a MIII planned, alone can tell us that there are no intellectual rights being violated, or breach of state secrets. wouldn't ya think?

 

But in turn thats why we are not getting the M2000-5. lack if public info, and legal bindings.


Edited by Kev2go

 

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perhaps its you who doesnt get it.

 

the fact that m2000c has been developed ( even before DCS it was made by Razbam for FSX) and that there is a F1 being developed by another 3rd party, and a MIII planned, alone can tell us that there are no intellectual rights being violated, or breach of state secrets. wouldn't ya think?

No, it means they don't care for now.

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the fact that m2000c has been developed ( even before DCS, Razbam already had the M2000 for FSX) and that there is a F1 being developed by another 3rd party, and a MIII planned, alone can tell us that there are no intellectual rights being violated, or breach of state secrets. wouldn't ya think?

 

But in turn thats why we are not getting the M2000-5. lack if public info, and legal bindings.

 

Bad Argument. The A-10C has been developed for DCS by ED. There is a flight document available online (by mistake?). Viewing it without the FBI kicking your door doesn't mean it is legal. And since it is considered classified on it's title page will get you at least a ban from these forums if you try to share the link. So no, not everything you find about military stuff online is free of rights violation or national security concerns.

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Bad Argument. The A-10C has been developed for DCS by ED. There is a flight document available online (by mistake?). Viewing it without the FBI kicking your door doesn't mean it is legal. And since it is considered classified on it's title page will get you at least a ban from these forums if you try to share the link. So no, not everything you find about military stuff online is free of rights violation or national security concerns.

 

also bad argument

 

the difference is that the A10C was a US Gov't/MIL contract. ED is not hiding that what we have is a consumer version, of the profesional national guard version. they willingly shared the manual and other data with them specifically, for them to develop it. Also at the time the A10C was brank spanking new upgrade for the A10 too.

 

As as far as we know RAZBAM said nothing of this being a consumer version of a Mi contract, and the M2000c is a old jet. I doubt France or Dassault would be paying Razbam to make a simulation of a now oudated version of that aircraft. Considering they operate the M2000-5/5 mk2, and Rafayales.

 

again that they couldnt use Mirage 2000c but M2000C due to legal bindings, indicates this was not contract collaboration of a gov't or a dassault contract.


Edited by Kev2go

 

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also bad argument

 

the difference is that the A10C was a US Gov't contract. ED even said what we have is a consumer version, of the national guard version. at the time the A10C was brank spanking new plane.

 

As as far as we know RAZBAM said nothing of this being a cosumer version of a contract, and the M2000c is a old jet. I doubt France or Dassault would be paying Razbam to make a simulation of a now oudated version of that aircraft. Considering they operate the M2000-5/5 mk2, and Rafayales now.

 

again that they couldnt use Mirage 2000c but M2000C due to legal bindings, indicates this was not collaboration on behalf of a gov't or a dassault contract.

 

The contract was for the Air National Guard and by the time the days of the A-10 were counted regarding US congress. That it came otherwise was not obvious.

 

And I'm replying to your Statement: "firsti dont Own any documents. Thesse doucments are actually legal since they are for public viewing. I wouldnt consider viewing a document online without physically having it in hand or on my hardrive "ownership". Some sources that ive used (are established organizations, that simply preserve documents. so no dont think any legal threats would apply here, becasue they woudlnt be the type to handle illegal classified documentation"

 

which is simply not correct! You can easily check your theory by posting the link to the "free for viewing" available document I mentioned above... BTW Streaming and not saving illegal stuff on your own HD is also prohibited in most western countries. And when it comes to outdated aircraft... You should talk about it with Belsimtek regarding the UH-1. Or maybe with Sony Music about the songs of Elvis... Try to find a company which wouldn't try to milk the cow...


Edited by FSKRipper

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The contract was for the Air National Guard and by the time the days of the A-10 were counted regarding US congress. That it came otherwise was not obvious.

 

And I'm replying to your Statement: "firsti dont Own any documents. Thesse doucments are actually legal since they are for public viewing. I wouldnt consider viewing a document online without physically having it in hand or on my hardrive "ownership". Some sources that ive used (are established organizations, that simply preserve documents. so no dont think any legal threats would apply here, becasue they woudlnt be the type to handle illegal classified documentation"

 

which is simply not correct! You can easily check your theory by posting the link to the "free for viewing" available document I mentioned above...

 

 

yes but said sources I use are reputable sites or organizations, and not seedy sites.

 

 

In thier policies they outright say they dont handle anything that would result in legal actions.

 

hence why ive never seen the A10C manual.....

 

 

those examples dont quite compare. different circumstances. Bst was merely a legal agreement. as long as thye setttled to paid a Liscense for developing a Paid product, ( and credit Bell) they got to do it.

 

Not comparable to just viewing a manual, for personal education purposes . that would qualify under "fair use"


Edited by Kev2go

 

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yes but said sources I use are reputable sites or organizations, and not seedy sites.

 

 

In thier policies they outright say they dont handle anything that would result in legal actions.

 

hence why ive never seen the A10C manual.....

 

Maybe because the site was no seedy Website but related to the US government :music_whistling:

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Maybe because the site was no seedy Website but related to the US government :music_whistling:

 

 

Nope. not AFAIK. Also before any internet "legal" warriors attack me , lets not conveniently forget about the Concept of " Fair use" which also a law. in many western countries. Viewing or even possessing something for personal research/ education purposes or uses for parody/satire is fine. In this case viewing unclassified manual for personal education, ( and not profit, like a virtual game development endeavor ) is Ok.

 

Again its pointless to trying to discern whats illegal ( or possible consequences) When different countries have different laws. Razbam after all isnt a French based developer. ( somewhere in south america, i think dont recall where)

 

why speculate further on how they got their information ( or discuss legal side ) for accurate module, without any clarification from razbam or ed?


Edited by Kev2go

 

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well that other sim that cannot be named has a flyable and combat functioning M2000-5.
Yes, there truly are no limits to what one can do when accuracy and realism is not a priority.

Standards are a bit higher here in DCS though.

 

"Realism" is 1/3rd of what you have - the sim and the system themselves & how could they relate to the real deal, and 2/3rd of what you do with it - how you use it.

You would be surprised of what one can achieve with an aircraft that isn't properly simulated in appearance in the "free other sim". It's far from being all about rampstarts & checklists. ;)


Edited by Corsair
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