AIM-120B shows up on RWR as an F-15 launch?

[fixen]

Is it correct that the RWR of the M2k gives a F-15C launch warning instead of a "M" for missile warning when a AIM-120 is fired? I made a mission for training and every time the F-15C launches a aim-120 at me, I see the F-15C contact on my rwr flashing, but not a M for missile. Since it is an active missile, shouldnt I get the missile as a contact on my RWR and not get a launch warning of the f-15?

[fixen]

Sorry i spoke to soon. I am also getting a missile warning. But the F-15 is flashing aswell. Is that just to indicate a hard lock?

[microvax]

Depends if pitbull or not.

[Rlaxoxo]

Depends if pitbull or not.

 

It used to be "M"

[Zeus67]

You should see the missile because it has its own radar. You also get the F15 icon flashing because its radar has gone into STT/Launch lock.

 

The problem is that the screen is too small and can get too cluttered, specially in the inner zone where all critical emitters are shown.

[fixen]

When the aim-120 is fired in tws I should not get a f-15 launch warning right. Because the radar does not change modes then. It can guide the aim-120 without going into continuous wave mode (which would happen when the radar launches a SARH missile). Doesn't the same apply to a stt lock? You should only get a lock warning but not a launch warning? The aim-120 does not need a continuous wave for launch. If im correct (which don't get me wrong, I might not be), the radar still operates in pulse doppler mode when stt locked but has a continuous pulse doppler scan on the target (not sweeping like in tws) which you pick up as a lock warning. You get a launch warning when the rwr detects you are being painted by a continuous wave (not pulse) which would happen with a SARH launch or when the aim-120 seeker is in range. But I suspect not when a aim-120 is launched in stt mode. Then you would first pick up a lock from the f-15 and then a launch warning when the missile goes pitbull (M), but not a launch warning from the launching f-15.

Now I get a launch warning when the launched missile leaves the rail, which I think is not correct (except when launched in close proximity when the missile goes mad dog.)

Edited September 28, 2016 by fixen

[Zeus67]

I do not control when or how the RWR reports a missile launch. All I do is ask if a missile has been launched. So if the RWR is "cheating" by telling me that a missile was launched when it shouldn't then that is on ED's side of the code.

[jojo]

Doesn't the same apply to a stt lock? You should only get a lock warning but not a launch warning?

 

It's a complicated matter. From what I know, The APG-63 use MPRF for STT lock and switch to HPRF to guide AIM-7M.

So you would get a warning on AIM-7M launch.

You can bet that a lot of SARH system have the same kind of behavior (specific guidance signal)

 

Then those who really knows if TWS signal change or not on AIM-120 launch won't tell you.

 

So the best would be to comply with current DCS standard.

[fixen]

Allright, I did some limited testing and will do more when I can find somebody to test with.

 

First let me tell you how it currently works when fighting in the SU-27 or F-15c against a ARH missile fired in TWS:

 

- First step: You are being scanned by enemy aircraft. The RWR shows you the contact, but does not give you a warning tone yet

 

- Second step: enemy aircraft launches ARH missile from medium range in TWS. You can still see the aircraft on your RWR but no lock or launch warning since the missile still has not activated it's own radar and the launching aircraft does not need a hardlock for guiding the aim-120.

 

- Third step: The missile goes pitbull. Your RWR now picks up the aim-120 that has activated its radar. Your RWR immediatly gives you a launch warning tone. The launching aircraft is still displayed as simply scanning and not launching.

 

In this example the lock warning is never initiated by the RWR, since there was never a case of hardlock. Only scanning and launch warning when the aim-120 turned on its radar. A enemy aircraft can also launch the aim-120 when in STT lock. In that case you will hear a lock sound and when the missile goes pitbull a launch warning sound.

 

Now what happens in the mirage:

- First step: You are being scanned by enemy aircraft. The RWR shows you the contact, but does not give you a warning tone yet. (same as in the F-15 and Su-27)

 

- Second step: enemy aircraft launches ARH missile from medium range in TWS. You can see the aircraft on your RWR and hear a launch warning with a F-15 flashing on RWR, but the missile has not activated his own radar yet. The F-15 is still in TWS, which should not give a launch warning, yet in the mirage it does.

 

- Third step: The missile goes pitbull and activates its own radar. You now see two launching contacts on your RWR. The F-15C (which you should not see as launching when comparing it to the F-15 and Su-27) and the missile which you should see.

 

If this has to do with ED's coding I will post it on their forum aswell or if you tell me this is how it should work I won't do anything.

But the thing I was confused about was the fact that the F-15C and SU-27 never give a launch warning when the missile has not activated its own radar yet, while the mirage does. It helps quite a bit when in a BVR fight, but might be unrealistic. I thought that one of the minor plus points of an ARH missile over SARH is that you dont know when it is fired except once it closed a lot of the distance allready.

Edited September 29, 2016 by fixen

[jojo]

Thanks for the test.

 

Since we can't know if TWS launch detection is realistic or not, the best would be to do the same as F-15C/ Su 27/ MiG 29 IMHO...

[Zeus67]

Allright, I did some limited testing and will do more when I can find somebody to test with.

 

First let me tell you how it currently works when fighting in the SU-27 or F-15c against a ARH missile fired in TWS:

 

- First step: You are being scanned by enemy aircraft. The RWR shows you the contact, but does not give you a warning tone yet

 

- Second step: enemy aircraft launches ARH missile from medium range in TWS. You can still see the aircraft on your RWR but no lock or launch warning since the missile still has not activated it's own radar and the launching aircraft does not need a hardlock for guiding the aim-120.

 

- Third step: The missile goes pitbull. Your RWR now picks up the aim-120 that has activated its radar. Your RWR immediatly gives you a launch warning tone. The launching aircraft is still displayed as simply scanning and not launching.

 

In this example the lock warning is never initiated by the RWR, since there was never a case of hardlock. Only scanning and launch warning when the aim-120 turned on its radar. A enemy aircraft can also launch the aim-120 when in STT lock. In that case you will hear a lock sound and when the missile goes pitbull a launch warning sound.

 

Now what happens in the mirage:

- First step: You are being scanned by enemy aircraft. The RWR shows you the contact, but does not give you a warning tone yet. (same as in the F-15 and Su-27)

 

- Second step: enemy aircraft launches ARH missile from medium range in TWS. You can see the aircraft on your RWR and hear a launch warning with a F-15 flashing on RWR, but the missile has not activated his own radar yet. The F-15 is still in TWS, which should not give a launch warning, yet in the mirage it does.

 

- Third step: The missile goes pitbull and activates its own radar. You now see two launching contacts on your RWR. The F-15C (which you should not see as launching when comparing it to the F-15 and Su-27) and the missile which you should see.

 

If this has to do with ED's coding I will post it on their forum aswell or if you tell me this is how it should work I won't do anything.

But the thing I was confused about was the fact that the F-15C and SU-27 never give a launch warning when the missile has not activated its own radar yet, while the mirage does. It helps quite a bit when in a BVR fight, but might be unrealistic. I thought that one of the minor plus points of an ARH missile over SARH is that you dont know when it is fired except once it closed a lot of the distance allready.

 

I'll see what can be done but I am reluctant to fix something while damaging another thing. As I said, all I do is ask the RWR if the enemy aircraft has launched. If it says it has then I turn on the warning and the circle flashes. So that is on ED side of the code.

[Skjold]

I'll see what can be done but I am reluctant to fix something while damaging another thing. As I said, all I do is ask the RWR if the enemy aircraft has launched. If it says it has then I turn on the warning and the circle flashes. So that is on ED side of the code.

 

Can you specify a certain reaction for a specific missile "aircraft launched aim-120 -> no warning" and "aircraft launched aim-7 -> warning" or is it generic "aircraft launched radar missile true/false -> warning/no warning"?

 

It might just be that the code is such that an AMRAAM launch is specified to not give a launch warning to give the illusion that it is being guided by TWS and not picked up by RWR until it activates its own onboard radar. There is clearly something coded into other RWR's to make this happen and the Mirages RWR seems to pick up both the missile and the plane itself.

 

If it is possible to specify reactions for specific missiles these should be all the active guided missiles that behaves like this in the game: AIM-120B, AIM-120C, R-77 & MICA-EM.

[Zeus67]

The RWR in DCS gives four signal types: UNKNOWN, SEARCH, LOCK, LAUNCH.

 

It will return only ONE of those types for a given emitter. So if an F-15 fires an AIM-120 while on TWS, then the RWR returns LAUNCH for the F-15 regardless of its actual operational status.

 

As I said, I could try to look for LOCK + LAUNCH but then I run the risk of breaking the RWR. So the pay does not justify the risk.

[myHelljumper]

Yeah, problem is on ED side. It's the same with the identification : 29, 27 and 33 should show as 29 as they have the same radar.

[fixen]

Then I wonder how ED (or Belsimtek for that matter) does the RWR on the F-15c, since that can cleary see the distinction between a SARH and ARH missile launch (or more like, not see the ARH launch).

 

Ill post this thread with some extra info on ED's side of the forum, because now I am really wondering how this works.

[fixen]

Yeah, problem is on ED side. It's the same with the identification : 29, 27 and 33 should show as 29 as they have the same radar.

 

I think this can be done by RAZBAM themselves (though not sure). If I'm correct they choose the label that is displayed by the RWR for every aircraft. They have a database of icons for the RWR to display which they match to the aircraft that is pinging the RWR. So they should change the Su-33 and Su-27 RWR icons to Mig-29 icons, to simulate the RWR not being able to discern aircraft types due to them having the same radar.

[myHelljumper]

Shouldn't it be done by the RWR API ?

[Skjold]

Ok thanks for the clarification Zeus.

[Azrayen]

Shouldn't it be done by the RWR API ?

 

Not if you want to simulate RWRs with different capabilities?

 

= = = = =

 

I agree with fixen and await gladly for the result of his inquiry :)

[myHelljumper]

Yeah, make sense.

[Zeus67]

I think this can be done by RAZBAM themselves (though not sure). If I'm correct they choose the label that is displayed by the RWR for every aircraft. They have a database of icons for the RWR to display which they match to the aircraft that is pinging the RWR. So they should change the Su-33 and Su-27 RWR icons to Mig-29 icons, to simulate the RWR not being able to discern aircraft types due to them having the same radar.

 

In this case the blame is 50/50 :music_whistling:. The RWR does return SU-33 but I can override that without problem except that I am not that knowledgeable in radar equiped aircraft. :smartass:

[jojo]

So they should change the Su-33 and Su-27 RWR icons to Mig-29 icons, to simulate the RWR not being able to discern aircraft types due to them having the same radar.

 

This isn't exact. Flanker family and MiG 29 have different radars.

 

What is true is that you can have some ambiguity between different radar types, and the RWR might confuse them.

[Frostie]

This isn't exact. Flanker family and MiG 29 have different radars.

 

What is true is that you can have some ambiguity between different radar types, and the RWR might confuse them.

 

The n001 radar on the Flanker uses the same signal processor and same array, although larger, as the n019 topaz used on the MiG-29.

 

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Kt2ZaOilGXIC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=n001+vs+n019&source=bl&ots=vQIWcLXDG_&sig=LmVjkTr8q5ZmmaLj9LLUYl_xEGA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjpsbmgmrfPAhWmC8AKHbYHChMQ6AEILjAE#v=onepage&q=n001%20vs%20n019&f=false

Edited September 30, 2016 by Frostie

[jojo]

The n001 radar on the Flanker uses the same signal processor and same array, although larger, as the n019 topaz used on the MiG-29.

 

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Kt2ZaOilGXIC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=n001+vs+n019&source=bl&ots=vQIWcLXDG_&sig=LmVjkTr8q5ZmmaLj9LLUYl_xEGA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjpsbmgmrfPAhWmC8AKHbYHChMQ6AEILjAE#v=onepage&q=n001%20vs%20n019&f=false

 

I'm nitpicking, but...

 

Signal processor is on the "reception" process of the radar, so the RWR won't know.

http://www.radartutorial.eu/10.processing/sp05.en.html

 

In the end maybe it's legitimate to display both MiG 29 and Su 27 with the same symbol as their signals may be close.

But N001 and N019 are different radars which share some components.

[red_coreSix]

I'm nitpicking, but...

 

Signal processor is on the "reception" process of the radar, so the RWR won't know.

http://www.radartutorial.eu/10.processing/sp05.en.html

 

In the end maybe it's legitimate to display both MiG 29 and Su 27 with the same symbol as their signals may be close.

But N001 and N019 are different radars which share some components.

 

Sharing the same signal processor means that the signals to be processed are the same, doesn't it?

Edited September 30, 2016 by red_coreSix