F-22 destroys the Su-27 in super maneuverbility

[VVanks]

Ah yes, F-22 destroys Su-27 because:

 

The only supposed weakness was super maneuvrebility of American aircraft. Now that has been debunked.

 

F-22 with WAY better BVR, smiliar super maneuvrebility.

 

Yep, my money is on the F-22 (pilot or not pilot we're comparing a 1950's sports car to a Pagani Zonda).

[VVanks]

If to look from this point of view it is possible to tell that F-22 has repeated maneuver a cobra accomplished 20 years ago Russian:). I wished to tell, that maneuverability F-22 sufficient for conducting near fight, and basically it especially and is not necessary to it, if Миг-29 and СУ-27 really will not win air fight against Миг-31, and it not such maneuverable as they;).

 

As addition: from a roller it is visible, that ОВТ to it allows to make not only a cobra well and "kulbit" and « chakru Frolov » (made for the first time on СУ-37)

 

yes, the F-22 has performed a kulbit. They call it a micro loop. search google video for it.

[ALDEGA]

*yawn*

[GR27]

I don't understand what is all the hassle about the "cobra" maneuver ? If you ask any fighter pilot from the east or from the west they will all tell you that today it's all about missiles and the planes stealth ability, the days of old fashion dog fight is over, the cobra maneuver is only good for aerobatics shows, it looks impressive but a good missile will shoot him dwon any way!

:pilotfly:

[ARM505]

You mean this no doubt (an actual video!):

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5982808370410134840

 

Hmmm.....that looked like....a loop - with the top of the loop being completed at fairly low speed. It was difficult to judge scale, to get an idea of the 'micro-ness', if you see what I mean. The target jumping in and out of focus didn't really help either. Must be that stealthy paint scheme! ;)

 

To be honest, the quality of the video is so bad, I could barely tell it was an F22!

[rattler]

you guys never give up

 

Let's have a History Lesson. Avro Arrow does over mach 2.0 still accelerating going through 58,000 40 years ago. It could out run the f-22 40 years ago so what is there to brag about. Unfortunately Politics took control. Too bad, but south of the border sure did'nt want to see that one in production. Just imagine for a second if that team stayed together and produced that A/C can you imagine for a second in time just what a marvel it was and what it could have become. It would have been beyond the F-22 for that era in time. Now we have the F-22 yes extremely fine A/C without question. Let's face it though, today the F-22 (USA), tomorrow who knows, for sure development on 6th generation A/C are probably on the boards now, the only question is by whom. Nations have known about the F-22 for quite some time, many years, do you think they just stopped and said da,what's up doc. I think not. Right now yes no argument from me, F-22 is a very versitile A/C with some unique features, some of the 4th gen. A/C have some pretty unique features as well and to jump from 4th generation to 5th gen., is not the big leap it used to be. Hell we can't even keep our home computers up todate. Obsolete almost out the door before we get it home. So to sum it all up yes F-22, but shortly around corner will come a new or perhaps a 4th gen. updated to 5th faster than we can say F-22. Cheers

[hitman]

Let's have a History Lesson. Avro Arrow does over mach 2.0 still accelerating going through 58,000 40 years ago. It could out run the f-22 40 years ago so what is there to brag about.

 

SR-71 still holds the world record last time I checked in speed. The F-22 doesnt have to outrun old aircraft from the 60's, it just has to outrun todays aircraft that can actually see it.

[GGTharos]

F-16 MATV doing Cobra:

 

http://www.wsosp.deblin.pl/F16/graf/filmiki/aam13.mov

[GGTharos]

As far as the Avro Arrow goes, it had to build up that speed on afterburner - the F-22 is not the first 'supercruising' aircraft around, though it's the first that can do it without afterburner, routinely.

 

The F-104 easily ran around at mach 2 on routine flights as well, at least when it was used as intended.

 

The F-22 has no need for mach-2 flight, and its gets close enough as is in any case, allowing it to routinely extend the range of its AMRAAMs and fire before being fired on itself.

[S77th-GOYA]

the F-22 is not the first 'supercruising' aircraft around, though it's the first that can do it without afterburner, routinely.

 

Huh? That's the definition of supercruise.

 

 

I've seen the top speed of the 22 listed at M 2.42. But, like any other info regarding the 22, who knows.

[S77th-GOYA]

It could out run the f-22 40 years ago so what is there to brag about.

 

Assuming that is true, how long could it out distance the Raptor until fuel became critical?

[GGTharos]

Nah, that's a re-definition as far as I'm concerned (and i say this because I have no immidiate sources to point to where this mode of flight was referred to specifically as supercruise before)

 

Supersonic cruising has been around for a while.

 

 

 

Incidentally, an F-18 demonstrating slow speed, high AoA handling:

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6017342022780502321

 

Not as impressive as what I recall, but it's possible that the Superbug lacks some of this particular performance. Or I recall wrong ;)

[GGTharos]

Assuming that is true, how long could it out distance the Raptor until fuel became critical?

 

Believe it or not, turbojets were pretty efficient in AB compared to turbofans.

[Ardillita]

Nah, that's a re-definition as far as I'm concerned (and i say this because I have no immidiate sources to point to where this mode of flight was referred to specifically as supercruise before)

 

Supersonic cruising has been around for a while.

 

 

 

Incidentally, an F-18 demonstrating slow speed, high AoA handling:

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6017342022780502321

 

Not as impressive as what I recall, but it's possible that the Superbug lacks some of this particular performance. Or I recall wrong ;)

 

 

That is no even close to a cobra manouver... GG we still hope you can find a video or link showing f18 or f16 makeing a cobra as you told us...

 

For sure you have in your private collection some blue angels show doing that may be????

[S77th-GOYA]

Believe it or not, turbojets were pretty efficient in AB compared to turbofans.

 

It had a range of 200nm in high speed intercept.

[Ardillita]

F-16 MATV doing Cobra:

 

http://www.wsosp.deblin.pl/F16/graf/filmiki/aam13.mov

 

You are a joke... that plane is specially modifued (as told in the video itself) vectorial trust plane. Some experiment or something like that. You talked about a f18 and f16 doing cobras years before the s27 if I remember well. Come on, I trust your memory, I know you can show us a real f16 / f18 doing a cobra. (by the way, that "cobra" in the video is doing at high speed as we can say because of the condensation we see on wings)

[GGTharos]

It had a range of 200nm in high speed intercept.

 

The Avro Arrow? I wouldn't be too surprised, if that implies going at maximum speed. I read somewhere that an F-104 could get relatively far on min AB though, but I haven't seen any numbers to be able to tell what 'relatively far' really meant.

[GGTharos]

You are a joke... that plane is specially modifued (as told in the video itself) vectorial trust plane. Some experiment or something like that. You talked about a f18 and f16 doing cobras years before the s27 if I remember well. Come on, I trust your memory,

[/quote[

 

But I don't trust your memory, not your ability to understand what you read. I suggest you go read -again- what I wrote. VERY slowly and carefully. Same with the F/A-18 ;)

 

I know you can show us a real f16 / f18 doing a cobra. (by the way, that "cobra" in the video is doing at high speed as we can say because of the condensation we see on wings)

 

Hey man, who am I to knock your expertise :D

[Guest IguanaKing]

 

But I don't trust your memory, not your ability to understand what you read. I suggest you go read -again- what I wrote. VERY slowly and carefully. Same with the F/A-18 ;)

 

Right on GG! I specifically remember you saying that the F-18 doesn't have to do a Cobra, and you never claimed that it did. Not sure why some are asking you for proof of something you never claimed. :D

[Guest IguanaKing]

You are a joke... that plane is specially modifued (as told in the video itself) vectorial trust plane. Some experiment or something like that. You talked about a f18 and f16 doing cobras years before the s27 if I remember well. Come on, I trust your memory, I know you can show us a real f16 / f18 doing a cobra. (by the way, that "cobra" in the video is doing at high speed as we can say because of the condensation we see on wings)

 

Ardillita, after reading this post, I'll just make a friendly suggestion that you back off with the insults...the final sentence of your's in parentheses doesn't speak well of your knowledge on the subject. When you're wrong (which you are) its a little easier on you if you didn't insult anybody in making such an incorrect statement. ;)

[Pilotasso]

Maximum speed means nothing these days. A high supercruise speed will overcome maximum speed any day simply because maximum speed cant be maintained for long and supercruise offers a much higher average speed.

 

From mach 1.5-1.7 supercruise to mach 2 there is not much a difference except that the supercruise aircraft enjoys range and will inexorably reach any other it races with that relies on AB to try outrun it.

 

And theres no point to argue max speed for intercept because the raptor is probably the fastest climber in history. Chances are the competition that can reach over mach 2 will be already behind the F-22 by the time this other aircraft reaches its maximum speed.

[S77th-GOYA]

Maximum speed means nothing these days.

Certainly it ,means something. If a Raptor (or any other plane) finds itself in a position where it must flee, it matters a great deal. And if you say a Raptor would never get itself in that position, why does it carry Sidewinders?

 

And theres no point to argue max speed for intercept because the raptor is probably the fastest climber in history.

 

Based on what? Is climb data available?

[S77th-GOYA]

F-18 can hold 80 AoA all day.

 

Can you support that?

 

And when the Raptor does this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5930540020698670370&q=russian+backflip&hl=en

then we got something. WHY it would do that is another question.

[hitman]

That would be very hard to ascertain, Goya, simply because the pilots cannot tolerate that many g's for any length of time. It would be nice to see if they can make one modded for remote control and try to make it spin out.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Goya, watch toward the end of the F-18 video he posted. Granted, its from an angle that makes it difficult to judge his Alpha, but I've seen it too at Blue Angels airshows. They usually do their's MUCH closer to the ground though, its quite spectacular to watch. :D

 

Hitman, its a maneuver they do all the time, and the Gs are about 1G. Maybe in a slightly different direction, but there's not much G loading in that high-AoA maneuver. ;)