Landing run, idle thrust, aerobraking

[bkthunder]

With the last patch we again saw some modifications in the ground "friction" and landing behaviour of the M2000. Both are much better now IMO, still I find it hard to slow down on landing.

 

 

I tried a few landings with 30% fuel (but that's not really important here), and noticed that it's very easy to overshoot the runway if I don't apply wheel brakes very early on.

In other aircraft / modules/ sims, it's not much of a problem to aerobrake enough that on a runway like Senaki you can afford not to use brakes at all.

In the M2000 on the other hand, I found it impossible not to overshoot the runway at Senaki if I didn't apply brakes soon after touch-down.

 

Now, is this still in need of some tuning? Does the real M2000 require a long runway and a lot of braking?

 

 

One test I want to perform when I have time is to land with the engine off, and see how it goes.

It could be that idle thrust is very high. Just an idea.

[razo+r]

Maybe use your drag chute?

[Azrayen]

Not a great idea.

 

It will work, sure, but it's not "the" solution.

 

M2000 doesn't use drag chute unless being in an abnormal situation (failure, overweight...)

It's an emergency device on this aircraft.

 

Besides, it's not always available : if you carry Éclair pod for example.

[ZHeN]

I'm sorry for being offtopic (don't want to create a separate thread) can anyone tell me where's air brake switch in the cockpit ?

[CrashO]

I'm sorry for being offtopic (don't want to create a separate thread) can anyone tell me where's air brake switch in the cockpit ?

On the throttle.. :music_whistling:

 

Edited October 7, 2016 by CrashO
image

[ZHeN]

On the throttle.. :music_whistling:

 

 

thanks

[bkthunder]

Ok so I just did a the following test, and to me now it's 100% clear that engine idle thrust is very high:

 

Senaki airport

30% Fuel

OAT = 15 degrees (ISA standard atmosphere)

 

- I perform a long and very stable approach

- CASE 1: as soon as I touch down with correct AoA, I switch off the engine

- The Mirage rapidly slows down and drops the nose. I am below 100 kts WITHOUT applying toe brakes before half of the runway.

 

- CASE 2: I perform a normal landing, the engine stays on.

- The Mirage keeps the nose up and speed in excess of 108 Kts for the whole length of the runway - overshoot.

 

 

So obviously the idle thrust is high and causing a remarkable difference in landing distance and use of toe brakes

[BlaizzMC]

aerobraking has been decrease since last patch (I mean keeping the nose up after landing) which make it difficult to land on short runway... I miss the old aerodynamics

[jojo]

It should have been obvious, but aerobraking isn't mandatory.

It's a way to lower brake system wear by applying it at lower speed.

 

On short runway:

- extend AB on touch down (destroy lift to load main gear)

- put nose on the ground ASAP

- brake with full stick aft

[BlaizzMC]

You shouldn't have to break like that !

[jojo]

You shouldn't have to break like that !

 

If it's short runway yes.

 

And you shouldn't travel half the runway nose high. You shouldn't be nose high below 100kt neither.

[Davee]

Ok so I just did a the following test, and to me now it's 100% clear that engine idle thrust is very high:

 

Senaki airport

30% Fuel

OAT = 15 degrees (ISA standard atmosphere)

 

- I perform a long and very stable approach

- CASE 1: as soon as I touch down with correct AoA, I switch off the engine

- The Mirage rapidly slows down and drops the nose. I am below 100 kts WITHOUT applying toe brakes before half of the runway.

 

- CASE 2: I perform a normal landing, the engine stays on.

- The Mirage keeps the nose up and speed in excess of 108 Kts for the whole length of the runway - overshoot.

 

 

So obviously the idle thrust is high and causing a remarkable difference in landing distance and use of toe brakes

 

Interesting test.

I find that landing is so much better in this last build but . . . following your comments, I also find that the aircraft does have a sustained speed on the runway before it finally slows enough - and the nose stays up a long time because of this. (IMHO)

 

Really enjoying this aircraft much more now and also Nevada works quite smooth for me - no stutters or pauses.

[zaelu]

My landings with Mirage are yet to be acceptable but I did observed also that the thing simply doesn't lose speed.

 

On the ground my plane starts to roll and I can taxi without problems by simply releasing the parking brake. Once I even had the plane moving with parking brake pulled, I was with my head down starting the thing up when my ground crew yelled at me I was leaving with cables attached. I thought that maybe is because I sometimes press the toe brakes without reason and maybe the thing is coded like Mi-8 where it used to release the parking brake when you squeezed the brake leaver with the axis.

[Zeus67]

Interestingly exactly this problem is even worse on the BST F-5. If the speed is approx 100kts, she will accelerate up to 140-150kts at idle (you can even lift her off the runway in ground effect!)

 

The opposite problem exists with the BST F-15. IRL the F-15 will not slow down below 90kts once the nosewheel is on the runway but the BST F-15 does slow down in that case.

 

Looks like there's a bit of finetuning required concerning idle thrust at low speeds on quite a few DCS planes.

 

Unfortunately it is very hard to finetune low speeds in DCS. Sometimes it is better to leave things as they are because changing them can and will alter other settings.

[zaelu]

Unfortunately it is very hard to finetune low speeds in DCS. Sometimes it is better to leave things as they are because changing them can and will alter other settings.

 

Still, the WW2 planes handles pretty okeish isn't it?

 

But you will still try to address this, right? I mean... it will not stay like this because if so I rather have that drag chute all the time.

 

As it is now if you land at the very end of any runway and let the aircraft do aerobraking it will never stop without applying brakes or chute. It will crash at the other end of the runway after losing just few knots in speed.

[Compulse]

But you will still try to address this, right? I mean... it will not stay like this because if so I rather have that drag chute all the time.

 

Zeus, if you decide to not change the aerodynamics, would it be possible to make the drag chute reloadable through the weapons/fuel menu, rather than the repair menu?

[SCU]

Well, flight model design is a very difficult and demanding task and of course a single change can lead to changes in other areas but that's exactly what separates average from high quality flight models.

DCS is IMO the flight simulator with the best flight dynamics and having an airplane unrealistically running out of runway on landing due to a faulty FM would be a waste of DCSs capabilities.

 

I have to agree with this. Even though in real life aerobraking does last a while I too believe there is something not right with idle thrust & slow speeds acceleration.

 

Testing is the key IMO, attempting to fix this in the developer build to match realistic behaviour but not releasing yet until testing is done to make sure any adverse effects are corrected before releasing it to public is the best way to do it if it's not how it's done already, easier said than done I guess.

 

No rush from us as I, & I'm sure most everyone, want the most realistic as possible Mirage however long it takes, as long as we know it's being worked on which I'm sure is what RAZBAM has & continues to do.