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Operation "Blue Flag" - 24/7 PvP Campaign - ROUND 9


gregzagk

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Ya know its some unresolved BS when you take the AIM-120 Away from F-15s in the name of "Fairness" yet allow Su-27s to retain off boresight capability.

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Ya know its some unresolved BS when you take the AIM-120 Away from F-15s in the name of "Fairness" yet allow Su-27s to retain off boresight capability.

 

Lots of other servers run with AIM-120's of all flavours if you need to get your 120 fix :)

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Lots of other servers run with AIM-120's of all flavours if you need to get your 120 fix :)

 

 

 

I don't think his complaint was not having -120s, it is more of the fact that red aircraft have a capability not afforded to blue.

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Ya know its some unresolved BS when you take the AIM-120 Away from F-15s in the name of "Fairness" yet allow Su-27s to retain off boresight capability.

 

1. Blue already has way too many advantages. We just rolled over 4 bases with a single A10C last night.

 

2. AIM7 already outclasses the R27 significantly. You shouldn't also expect to have far superior SRMs when a fair equivalent is available for both sides. The F15 still outperforms the Flanker in almost every scenario.

 

3. If we wanted to restrict things for more fairness, the A10C would not get a TGP, the F15 would not be able to carry 3 bags, and the Mistral would not be able to call in bombers. Also, the Su27 would get datalink.

 

The R73 OBS capability is rarely decisive based on the sheer number of blue players and the fact that the AIM9 will reject CM better and kill the Flanker regardless if the F15 doesn't get surprised.

 

I play both red and blue, switching every round or two, and blue has it way better than red. 120s would not only be overkill, but they would also destroy all the fun WVR engagements, as they were designed to do. BVR is boring and very repetitive.


Edited by Dino Might
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I don't think his complaint was not having -120s, it is more of the fact that red aircraft have a capability not afforded to blue.

 

 

For sure, but again, there are servers that do have 120's for the F15's and off boreseight for the SU27's - which appears to be what he was after. Some large and very popular servers in fact.

 

It just seems it would be easier to join one of those servers and have some fun rather than post negatively here about this server.


Edited by Marstiphal
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I don't think his complaint was not having -120s, it is more of the fact that red aircraft have a capability not afforded to blue.

 

I'll be curious to see what happens when the F-18 is tossed into the mix with Aim-9X...

 

Simple fact is the F--15C lost an significant advantage with the AIM-120 and RED retained a significant advantage with the off-boresight capability. You removed F-15C BVR Capability and force it into the WVR arena where its opponents retain an advantage...

 

To portray it as anything else is foolish.


Edited by Sierra99

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I'll be curious to see what happens when the F-18 is tossed into the mix with Aim-9X...

 

Simple fact is the F--15C lost an significant advantage with the AIM-120 and RED retained a significant advantage with the off-boresight capability.

 

To portray it as anything else is foolish.

 

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sorry can't resist :lol:

btw i'm agree with you, but is a server rules

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You contend that the Su27 has a significant advantage because of an edge case? How many times does a flanker even get a successful high off boresight shot? The F15 still has better BVR capability than the Flanker with it's AIM7s, and you want 120s???

 

How many times does faster and longer range and more CM resistant AIM7 (compared to r27) kill the Flanker before in SRM range? How often does more CM resistant AIM9M kill the Flanker before it can get off a sufficient number of R73s to punch through the flare wall of the F15?

 

The F15 can turn as tight or tighter, will win in a STR fight, has better radar, carries more fuel, carries just as many weapons unless you wisely ditch the ecm pods in the flanker, and can go faster. What more do you want? Have you even flown red side? Done any engagements vs F15s with the Flanker on this server?


Edited by Dino Might
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I'll be curious to see what happens when the F-18 is tossed into the mix with Aim-9X...

 

Simple fact is the F--15C lost an significant advantage with the AIM-120 and RED retained a significant advantage with the off-boresight capability. You removed F-15C BVR Capability and force it into the WVR arena where its opponents retain an advantage...

 

To portray it as anything else is foolish.

 

Im sorry to interrupt your dying swan act but the F15 still retains a huge BVR advantage in an R vs Aim7 setup. If you are unable to capitalise thats fair enough but ask any capable pilot and they'll inform you. It seems to me that flying the F15 is defined by firing 120s for you when in fact for the first 15 years of F15 service it only had SARH. During that time it accrued most of its impressive A2A kill record, without the benefit of 120s.

 

The server owners have clearly gone for an early 80s setup where there were no active missiles (Nor ER/ET). Whining about the lack of 120s and 9X is just a bit weak.

 

And i'm sorry to disappoint you again but F18 early access will not include the JHMCS nor the 9X. And I wouldn't be surprised, given the current restrictions, if the 9X is not available in the server anyway since it is totally out of timeframe. At least once all the new module fuss has died down.

 

Good luck!


Edited by ///Rage

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You contend that the Su27 has a significant advantage because of an edge case? How many times does a flanker even get a successful high off boresight shot?

 

It only takes one time to come on the forums and complain about it though (;

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While reading 'Skunk Works', which I cannot recommend enough, I learned that our balance issues exist in the real world as well... The difference is how much development was done by the "red" side to counter "blue" air superiority. Yes, the "blue" A/G flights have a far greater advantage with precision munitions,etc,etc, but they should be facing far greater threats from the ground. Yes the "blue" fighters have SARH missiles (not atm) , but they would be fighting without SAM support from allies and against an opponent with different advantages and SAM support. I think the key to successfully providing a "fair" environment is not balance, rather unbalancing things.

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While reading 'Skunk Works', which I cannot recommend enough, I learned that our balance issues exist in the real world as well... The difference is how much development was done by the "red" side to counter "blue" air superiority. Yes, the "blue" A/G flights have a far greater advantage with precision munitions,etc,etc, but they should be facing far greater threats from the ground. Yes the "blue" fighters have SARH missiles (not atm) , but they would be fighting without SAM support from allies and against an opponent with different advantages and SAM support. I think the key to successfully providing a "fair" environment is not balance, rather unbalancing things.

 

 

Balance has been discusses to death. Some people want Blue to be far stronger (because IRL or something), some people want symmetric balance i.e. every plane / helo has a direct oppoonent on the other team;

 

and some people advocate for asymmetric balance, like you're saying. I think this is the best we can do in DCS with the module set and the coming modules. It is also the way most Real Time Strategy games are balanced, each side has pros and cons and a different set of units but in general, each force as a whole, is balanced, all else being equal.

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Im sorry to interrupt your dying swan act but the F15 still retains a huge BVR advantage in an R vs Aim7 setup.

 

No Dying swan act here princess...Simple fact is the AIM-120 has been removed to "Even" the playing field...That's all well and good.

 

 

F15 still retains a huge BVR advantage in an R vs Aim7 setup.

 

Huge? Yeahhhh...If you say so...But we're not talking about BVR. We're talking about WVR. By removing the Aim-120 you evened the BVR playing field but by leaving left the off boresight capability you tilted the advantage toward the aircraft capable of using it. To pretend its NOT an advantage is naive.

 

 

If you are unable to capitalise thats fair enough but ask any capable pilot and they'll inform you.

 

Funny I actually did talk to several capable pilots...they all agreed...it's BS but the difference is they simply accept it. Me? Nah... I'm gonna call out BS when I see it. Nothing may change but I'm gonna call the people taking advantage of it to remind them they have an artificially imposed advantage.

 

The server owners have clearly gone for an early 80s setup where there were no active missiles (Nor ER/ET). Whining about the lack of 120s and 9X is just a bit weak.

 

80s Setup? GBU-38s were available in the 80s? Hummmmm...I don't think those arrived until the late 90s...KA-50...Not fielded until August 95...Nice try but moving on.

 

Go back and look...I'm not whining about the LACK of -120s...I'm calling out the fact you removed BVR capability from the F-15s and allowed the Red aircraft retain a WVR capability...big difference.

 

And i'm sorry to disappoint you again but F18 early access will not include the JHMCS nor the 9X. And I wouldn't be surprised, given the current restrictions, if the 9X is not available in the server anyway since it is totally out of timeframe. At least once all the new module fuss has died down.

 

Yeah...I read the announcement too sooooo you haven't disappointed anyone.

 

Here's a simple fact...I don't care I got shot down...I get shot down all the time...I want things balanced and right now imbalance exists.


Edited by Sierra99

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Sierra, you are ignoring any sort of comparison of capability and simply using categorical arguments only you agree to. Here's the straight dope, having flown both platforms in this server, 104th, and others.

 

The AIM7 is superior to the R27 in every way. F15 has a better radar than the Su27. F15 has a BVR advantage here, even without 120s.

 

AIM9M has better CCM. It is longer ranged. The R73 has better off boresight capability. F15 has better vertical scan, Su27 has HMD. HOBS successes are such a small fraction of engagements that I'd take the F15 over the Flanker if there was anything important on the line.

WVR comes out in a wash if we are looking at this coarsely, but still advantage goes to the F15 in most normal engagements.

 

The F15 carries more fuel, has better STR, has a better radar, integrated ECM, and has higher top speed. It carries two fewer missiles if the Flanker ditches the ECM pods.

 

F15 is the plane to beat. It surpasses the Flanker in nearly every arena, but with the current loadout restrictions, the two are close enough to make it come down to the pilot 95+% of the time.


Edited by Dino Might
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I don't think there is an disadvantage...

 

I am a F-15 pilot (I mean that I main the F-15, not that I am a real pilot :lol: ), if you are getting in turn fights with Flankers on the regular, you are doing it wrong.

 

Just differences in platforms.... you can't escape that.... and to be honest how often do you get 180 degree r-73 shots, like c'mon, are you flying in a straight line ?

 

And what is your solution ? get rid of the r-73 ? Can the Su-27 even carry the R-60 in game ? that missile is worse than an AIM-9P.... or what ? are you suggesting to give a long(medium range) missile, just because they have a nice close range BVR one ? that seems logical....

 

The F-15 can carry only 4 9Ms and the Flanker can carry what 6 ? (8? on the D ?) IR missiles ? +4 more SARH and it has an electro-optical system??? Man, if you ask me, we should ban the Flankers in general, too many advantages.....(sarcasm)

 

Part of being a good pilot is to know what your aircraft is capable of and what the enemy one is capable of and play to your advantages....

 

Both have their pros and cons....

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Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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Go back and look...I'm not whining about the LACK of -120s...I'm calling out the fact you removed BVR capability from the F-15s and allowed the Red aircraft retain a WVR capability...big difference.

 

Removed BVR capability because you're forced to use the 7M? Really?

 

I think this really sums up your anxieties about the setup. Truly you are lost without your 120s:huh:

 

If the idea of having to work for a kill is so abhorrent to you then im sure you can design and host your own setup, or if necessary, shoot fish in a barrel. Shrug.


Edited by ///Rage

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Such rage can be cured by removing f15 and su27.

GCI and some pure close range violence :D

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Removed BVR capability because you're forced to use the 7M? Really?

 

I think this really sums up your anxieties about the setup. Truly you are lost without your 120s:huh:

 

If the idea of having to work for a kill is so abhorrent to you then im sure you can design and host your own setup, or if necessary, shoot fish in a barrel. Shrug.

 

Well, I wouldn't say that it is like shooting fish in a barrel. Maybe versus not so skilled pilots (which the majority are :lol:)

 

Any skilled pilot (like yourself, knows how easy it is to dodge an amraam)

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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