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Engaged Defensive


Spudman

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I've been looking through the forums for the subject on how to evade and counter incoming missile threats, A2A and S2A. So far I haven't found anything. I know that you can do more than pop flares and dump chaff. What's a good resource for evasion tactics?

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Get it on you 3-9 line chaff flare, I tend to roll inverted as it gets close then pull myself under it, hope that helps a little, best way is to set up a mission with a single sam and practice with them.

I don't get away from them everytime but then they wouldnt use missiles if they were that easy to avoid.

 

This should give you an idea of what i mean..

 


Edited by JetwasH

AEF JetwasH | 161 SQN

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Get it on you 3-9 line chaff flare, I tend to roll inverted as it gets close then pull myself under it, hope that helps a little, best way is to set up a mission with a single sam and practice with them.

I don't get away from them everytime but then they wouldnt use missiles if they were that easy to avoid.

 

So at 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock? What about air-to-air missiles? Thank you for the advice.

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air to air is similar you need to make the incoming missile lose energy but without losing your own... so try to keep 3-9 line again as its a couple seconds from hit you pull into it or under it.

Here another one.. A/A

 

AEF JetwasH | 161 SQN

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Uploading a video on this right now...Will edit when upload is complete.

 

Edit: Here it is, but just note that I'm pretty quiet for some reason (or the game is too loud...? IDK).

 


Edited by Sweep

Lord of Salt

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air to air is similar you need to make the incoming missile lose energy but without losing your own... so try to keep 3-9 line again as its a couple seconds from hit you pull into it or under it.

Here another one.. A/A

 

 

Thank you for your help. The interesting thing this is that I used to use that barrel roll maneuver in a flight sim that came out in the mid 90's called, "EF2000".

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There's three main ways you can defeat a missile:

 

1. Kinematically by bleeding the missile's speed, causing it not to reach you.

 

2. Break the missile lock, causing the missile to lose sight of you.

 

3. Make the missile impact terrain instead of you.

 

Kinematic defeat consists of a combination of:

-Maximum thrust. Faster is generally better. Just make sure not to fly into the missile, start maneuvering away from it.

-High G maneuver away from the missile (more G is better, so stay fast enough!)

-Running away from the missile, combined with a high G left-right snaking or barrel rolling maneuver if needed.

-Flying as low as possible (low altitude -> high density air -> missile loses more speed)

-If the missile seems to reach you despite previously mentioned maneuvers --> last moment maximum G maneuver just before expected impact.

 

Breaking radar missile lock can be achieved with a combination of:

-Try to get below the enemy radar (be it incoming missile or enemy aircraft). Dive low!

-Put the enemy radar exactly on your 3 o clock or 9 o clock using your RWR and keep it there! You do not need to fly level, this also works in an almost vertical dive. You just need to make your flight path perpendicular to the enemy radar's direction in the 3D space.

-Use lots of chaff (optional if previous measures are executed perfectly)

-Make sure the missile has missed before resuming other maneuvers! AIM-120s reacquire very easily.

IMPORTANT: if you are co-altitude of above the radar source, breaking the radar missile lock may not be possible!!!

 

Breaking an IR seeking missile lock can be achieved with a combination of:

-Flying straight towards the incoming missile (minimizes heat signature, very counterintuitive so try and see that it really works)

-Reducing throttle to idle (yes idle, just cutting the afterburner may not be enough)

-Pop enough flares in quick sequences! I recommend bursts of three presses in FC3 aircraft.

-Once you visually see the missile go for your flares, maneuver your aircraft out of the missile's flight path to prevent it from reacquiring you.

 

To make the missile impact terrain you may try to make a very steep dive and pull up at the last moment. Also make smart use of any hills nearby :)

 

Bonus evasion techniques!!!:

 

4. Fly below minimum tracking altitude of the missile. Works against semi-active radar homing systems ONLY. (such as AIM-7M, R-27ER, and any radar guided SAM system) Does not work against active radar missiles such as AIM-120, R-77, or any heatseekers!! Minimum tracking altitude varies between systems, can be anything between 7-20 meters above ground or maybe even more. As a rule of thumb, flying below 10 m above ground will protect you from pretty much everything except the SA-15 Tor(whether land-based vehicle or on a warship) where you have to fly below 7 m above ground to be protected from this deadly SAM! Buildings and uneven terrain contours will be in the way and you have to decide.. whether to fly around them or fly over them and expose yourself for a few seconds which may be too much. :):):)

 

5. Attempt to shoot down the incoming missile! Can be achieved with heat seeking missiles only(R-73 is great, and R-27ET works surprisingly well perhaps because of its larger proximity detonation bubble..?). Easiest to perform with Russian FC3 fighters and Su-25(T) in longitudinal firing mode because launch authorize is tied to missile lock. Just point your nose at the missile, pull and hold the trigger, and your missile will launch at the correct time, hopefully destroying the incoming missile before impact. This can be achieved also at high angle off nose with helmet sight, but is very hard and thus not practical unless you mentally prepare in advance to do it :). Also achievable with AIM-9M, including by A-10Cs :)


Edited by Stuge
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air to air is similar you need to make the incoming missile lose energy but without losing your own... so try to keep 3-9 line again as its a couple seconds from hit you pull into it or under it.

Here another one.. A/A

 

 

As a kinematic defense the 3-9 line is highly overrated. It is not optimal for bleeding the missile's speed. Running away is often much safer.

 

The 3-9 line does give you the chance of breaking the radar lock though, and that may be the only option if you're too close to run away.

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Knowing that missiles use lead pursuit to intercept their target, slight adjustments in the targets flight path cause the missile to correct course by a much larger degree in order to get where you're going to be to intercept. Pulling numbers out of my ass, but to display the point; a 5 degree nose up for you could cause a missle to pull its own nose up by 15-20. Thats obviously harder on the missile than you, but countered somewhat by the missile starting out with so much more energy. Since you got so much control over the missiles flight path, you can use that to bleed energy or guide it into terrain.

 

People will also tell you to fly as fast as possible because the higher your speed the farther away that intercept point will be, and the more the missile will have to adjust its course at the cost of energy.

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You have to start defeating the missile or make it harder for the missile to reach you before it's shot. Crank the bandit (s). So put them in your radar gimbal limits on your left and right. Check their closing speed. If it's very high and yours as well. You can fire early. Crank in and fire. Every missile that is being fired at you now fly's in a curved path so travels more distance. On putbill start defending missile and break lock with the enemy. Before the attack position yourself in such a way there is always a way out. A hill, your speed, a friendly plane, friendly SAM, etc etc. Half of the defending work is done before the missiles are fired. It will make your later maneuvers to try and trash the missiles a bit more easy.

 

* If the launch platform is traveling at high speed the missile will reach you extremely fast. If the launch aircraft speed is to high M1.6+ and it fires a missile form close in(12- miles) you can use this to your advantage. Every move you do now is being done in excess on the missile. Very easy to trash super fast missiles.

 

* If the launch aircraft is launching from below Mach 1 you have mostly plenty of time to come in fire your missile from 10/8 miles do a full break turn and run away.

 

* If you are flying the F-15 or any other plane that can ID type of aircraft always check what plane you are fighting. Many times i have eaten a totally unnecessary R-77 hit because i was defending for ER.

 

* Use all this info with above comments.

 

Disclaimer: I'm not really good in explaining this stuff. I bet others can do better.

Go in close, and when you think you are too close, go in closer.

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Could you clarify if you just want to defeat a missile regardless of air space, or if you want to defeat it and still contest for air space?

 

You will still use all of the methods that Stuge mentioned for both of these scenarios, but for the latter you will need to optimize the time it takes you to defeat their missile and turn back in.

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As a kinematic defense the 3-9 line is highly overrated. It is not optimal for bleeding the missile's speed. Running away is often much safer.

 

The 3-9 line does give you the chance of breaking the radar lock though, and that may be the only option if you're too close to run away.

 

I personally prefer the 3-9 line kinematic defense, because I can get a tally on the bandit (very easy if they pop flares) and sometimes even their missile in this position. Both of these things allow me to turn back as quickly as possible and point at them. I just feel like the drag loses too much SA.

 

I also would have less angles to turn back in although I'm not sure if the dragging bandit would be able to offset this by being able to start turning back before me. I have never been able to test this sadly as most people who drag do so very conservatively. Most actually never turn back. Poor close air support :(

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I personally prefer the 3-9 line kinematic defense, because I can get a tally on the bandit (very easy if they pop flares) and sometimes even their missile in this position. Both of these things allow me to turn back as quickly as possible and point at them. I just feel like the drag loses too much SA.

 

I think the reason the 3-9 line is overrated is because it's taken as a complete defense while it's really a transition (unless the launch against you is near to Rmax). Often it's the first and more or less only piece of advice given, along with chaffing/flaring. It was the first decent reply in this thread for example.

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I suppose what I'm talking about isn't actually a 3-9 defense. I actually put the missile about 110 degrees off my nose where I can fully transition to a 180 degree drag if I'm not confident of my SA or if I see a splash. I also use light vertical reversals on this heading.

 

Continuous 3-9 line is really for notching, but I suppose you could give it a good shot kinematically with vertical reversals and a well timed orthogonal roll; bit risky though.

 

So maybe I don't quite disagree :)

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Ragnarok is busy putting up some vids on how to defeat missiles. He put up some nice TACVIEW video's. These are just the basics. But shows with good clearance what to do. Check his channel for more of this.

 


Edited by winchesterdelta1

Go in close, and when you think you are too close, go in closer.

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Anything close to a 3/9 defense is overrated because people seriously underestimate the amount of energetical superiority you need to have to make it work. Especially with ARHs, but very often even against ERs/ETs in equal energy state fights it won't matter what kind of 3/9 you pull, if the guy wants you he's gonna get you. The amount of displacement you get from doing this usually isn't enough to save your ass, especially with DCS ranges.

 

Flying sideways also exposes your heat signature significantly more and you obviously can't afford to be idling your engine when you're in that spot cause you gotta turn hard either way. Another thing is when you're going for a recommit here you're always going to be turning into the missile so you need to be very sure that it won't catch you else you just did the other guy a big favor.

 

Then I haven't mentioned the part where notching/pushing someone may cause you to fly into other bandits that you're very likely unaware of. This is not uncommon at all in a server scenario.

 

Bottom line is, dragging out missiles is the most reliable way of surviving them because there isn't much you can screw up about it. Provided you know about the launch early enough and you start defending it really has no way of catching you. Obviously this is not an offensive move but it works the best.

 

When you feel more confident or have the advantage you can start playing. Obviously your plan will be a matter of the bigger picture, sometimes you have to push even if it doesn't make sense.

 

My other advice is that you can make anything work, but only under the right circumstances. An experienced salesman can make anyone buy anything, and then make them eat it too.

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My take on it is this.

The missile is not aiming for you. It is aiming at an imaginary point out in front of you. You can move that point around and make the missile bleed it's energy, you can put the point underground, or you can move the point somewhere outside of the missile's ability to turn.

 

Countermeasures make things easier unless it's an AIM-120 (American radar missile, used mostly by the F-15) which are pretty much immune to chaff (chaff is metal that confuses all other radar missiles)

 

For countermeasures to work you must dispense them to LOOSEN the lock the missile has on you. You must distance yourself from the countermeasures by maneuvering to BREAK the lock. Remember this and burn it into your memory. Flying straight will get you killed most of the time even if you are dispensing.

 

Also, a tip for those replying in this thread.

 

When teaching somebody how to do something in DCS, don't ever try to make yourself look smart. While it may briefly impress them, this intimidates the student and enforces the "I'll never learn all of this" mentality. Make yourself look as dumb as possible. Use very simple analogies and explanations. Teach the bare bone concepts then add to them later because the brain can only absorb a certain amount of information at a time.

DCS modules are built up to a spec, not down to a schedule.

 

In order to utilize a system to your advantage, you must know how it works.

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