Significance of the 190

[pepto]

Whenever you hear about WWII from allied and axis pilots alike they all agree that the FW-190 was the terror of the skies. Spitfire pilots were confident against 109s but learned to fear the 190, and historically it's generally agreed upon that the 190 was superior to the 109. However that doesn't seem to be the case in sims (at least in my view. take DCS for example, the 190 feels outperformed by the mustang and the 109. I know it's supposed to be used as to BnZ but it feels like the 109 just does that better, not just in DCS but in Battle of Stalingrad too. The 109 has no trouble at all picking up speed in a dive, and can retain it much better while extending/climbing. Is it armament? I know the 190 packs a good punch but 109's wasn't terrible. Is it something about flying it IRL that we simmers just don't have the ability to comprehend, like the feel of the aircraft or the ergonomics? I want to be able to use this bird to it's maximum but whenever I take it out of the hanger in IL-2 or DCS most times it feels like the 109 could do an on par, if not better job.

[PicksKing]

Once I saw a documentation about the FW and a Luftwaffe pilot said, that the 190A even could outturn a 109. He was old but did not seem to be senile. So I have the same feeling about that.

But maybe there is a huge difference between the Anton and Dora.

[pepto]

Once I saw a documentation about the FW and a Luftwaffe pilot said, that the 190A even could outturn a 109. He was old but did not seem to be senile. So I have the same feeling about that.

But maybe there is a huge difference between the Anton and Dora.

 

I really doubt that, the 190A in IL-2 and 190D we have both turn like absolute bricks. The 109 can be fairly agile really, just never agile enough to outturn some of its opposition, plus using it to BnZ is to use its real power most effectively.

[zcrazyx]

you have to remember that we're not escorting bombers in the P51s, usually its 1v1 - 4v4 etc so it ends up as a turn fight on the deck, i would thing that the 51 and 190 turn similarly and even as well as the 109 with use of flaps, that being said it ends up being about the pilot knowing what to do in every turn and knowing what to do before the opposition has even thought about it, what will really make me tell is when the Spitfire mk9 comes as it was the "stop gap" against the 190A.

 

Edit - I am by no means a great p51 simmer but i have had many manauver kills by forcing them low, hard and slow. I do aerobatics in the Mustang though and i can say that it is easy to force one to drop a wing.

[pepto]

you have to remember that we're not escorting bombers in the P51s, usually its 1v1 - 4v4 etc so it ends up as a turn fight on the deck, i would thing that the 51 and 190 turn similarly and even as well as the 109 with use of flaps, that being said it ends up being about the pilot knowing what to do in every turn and knowing what to do before the opposition has even thought about it, what will really make me tell is when the Spitfire mk9 comes as it was the "stop gap" against the 190A.

 

Edit - I am by no means a great p51 simmer but i have had many manauver kills by forcing them low, hard and slow. I do aerobatics in the Mustang though and i can say that it is easy to force one to drop a wing.

 

That's a really good point, I imagine it would be much more effective in groups, especially against bombers and their escorts like you said.

[MaxDamage]

fw 190 is nothing special.

 

bf109 has better climb, turning, acceleration.

 

fw190 cant outclimb or outturn their opposition.

 

It might be good for straight pass by attacks on the opponent which doesnt see you. But its a terrible 1v1 plane.

 

The D9, given good boost setting can be a good late war plane though.

Edited November 28, 2016 by MaxDamage

[IronJockel]

Most people fly the 190 wrong and they overall are seeking dogfights in sims, while in reality most air to air kills where done by high speed surprise attacks, in which the 190 shines.

The impression of some pilots that the 190 could out turn a 109 could be because she turned better at high speed.

If you fly a 190 how she is supposed to be used, meaning stay fast, she will always bring you home.

The 109 is extremely stiff in a high speed dives, what makes it very difficult to use in proper BnZ attacks.

[Andy1966]

burn fuel in aft tank first, it turns much better, don't flat turn, it will bleed E very fast. it immelmans well to reverse course, also split s very well, but I prefer immelman though, so as too not loose alt advantage

[Bounder]

I think the "terror of the skies" or "butcher bird" reputation of the Fw190 has comes from the introduction of the Fw190A in 1941 where it faced the Spitfire mkV and Hurricane mkII. The Spit V was considered well matched against the 109F of that period but the Fw190A was a game changer.

 

There’s a really nice bit in Spitfire - The History by Morgan and Shacklady on how impact of the Fw190A changed RAF policy on developing a replacement for the Spit mkV – which is along the lines of opposition to developing a major new replacement until the Fw190A came on the scene. I don’t have a copy of the book with me but it includes a letter from RAF command describing exactly this. From memory there were recommendations in place to only engage Fw190A’s under a certain altitude in the Spit V (again from my hazy memory of last reading Morgan and Shacklady ) – this changed once the Spit IX was introduced as it was very good match for the Fw190A.

 

I’m not going to try to comment on how the Fw190A may or may not perform in another game but the Fw190D9 in DCS is a decent opponent for the P51D. At to mid to low altitudes (given similar fuel loads and pilot skill etc etc) it is faster, it will outclimb and out scissor the P51D and packs a very deadly armament. As Jockel says’ above, when flown right it’s a great bird but like any warplane it shines when flown to its strengths.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Bounder

[Ala13_ManOWar]

burn fuel in aft tank first, it turns much better …

+10 Not only turns, but she becomes the super agile fighter we all have read about, it's very important to get the rear tank empty first. With full tanks you have to be careful though, and agility isn't brilliant whatsoever, only roll rate is good but not that much until you're on the fuel sweet spot.

 

 

Whenever you hear about WWII from allied and axis pilots alike they all agree that the FW-190 was the terror of the skies. Spitfire pilots were confident against 109s but learned to fear the 190, and historically it's generally agreed upon that the 190 was superior to the 109. However that doesn't seem to be the case in sims (at least in my view. take DCS for example, the 190 feels outperformed by the mustang and the 109. I know it's supposed to be used as to BnZ but it feels like the 109 just does that better, not just in DCS but in Battle of Stalingrad too. The 109 has no trouble at all picking up speed in a dive, and can retain it much better while extending/climbing. Is it armament? I know the 190 packs a good punch but 109's wasn't terrible. Is it something about flying it IRL that we simmers just don't have the ability to comprehend, like the feel of the aircraft or the ergonomics? I want to be able to use this bird to it's maximum but whenever I take it out of the hanger in IL-2 or DCS most times it feels like the 109 could do an on par, if not better job.

IMHO the thing is you're comparing apples and oranges, and not only, you're mixing up models and dates.

 

It seems people tends to forget we have the ultimate 109, even though almost all 109 had a good climb rate compared to current counterparts, not so were other performances and specially top speed. Earlier models than K4 lacked so good performances in one or another aspects (while sometimes having better ones in others). Here we have the Fw190D9, a more or less later model, but not even close to "the ultimate 190", being that Ta152C and H. Those models really kicked in the ass everything, including Bf109K4. I don't dare to say this or that 109 model should be the one compared to D9, but it isn't K4 definitely. Albeit still Dora keeps on par, even improving slightly, P-51 performances, and Dora low level top speed is unmatched.

 

 

The 190s first Spit IX was design to counter were early models, A2, A3, A4 at best, those really were a big step forward for Germans for awhile, again in top speed (almost 100Km/H better than Spit V), but also agility. Of course agility doesn't mean it could out turn a Spit, but it could fly faster the wider radium turn meaning a better manoeuvrability. Dora can still do that over P-51 and K4, but not with a so great margin as firsts 190 did. Anyway, that's a feature you have to master before using it, and it's not an easy one, if not you'll find yourself with no speed and no altitude just trying to turn like mad for your life.

 

 

Besides that, 109 fanboys usually forget 190 was an technical wonder, the first ever aeroplane which almost all controls were electrical, with a primitive form of what we call nowadays ergonomics, everything at hand in cockpit, and ease of use for the pilot who could concentrate on combat instead of management. 109 have a bit of that with Komandogerat, but not in a so high level as 190. You're right in a sim we may be a bit unaware of those refinements and make not so huge difference, but IRL of course everything matters. When you read Dora manual you can only wonder how well designed this bird is.

 

 

S!

 

P.S.: forget about comparing other simulators, those games has to be balanced due to playability and we don't know yet different models than current in a DCS modelling level.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Ala13_ManOWar

[PicksKing]

burn fuel in aft tank first, it turns much better, don't flat turn, it will bleed E very fast. it immelmans well to reverse course, also split s very well, but I prefer immelman though, so as too not loose alt advantage

 

Thanks. That really helped.

Is it possible to load fuel only in rear tank? I dont know any function for that.

 

Edit: Never mind. The rear tank is already empty with 50% fuel.

Edited November 29, 2016 by PicksKing

[Solty]

Most people fly the 190 wrong and they overall are seeking dogfights in sims, while in reality most air to air kills where done by high speed surprise attacks, in which the 190 shines.

The impression of some pilots that the 190 could out turn a 109 could be because she turned better at high speed.

If you fly a 190 how she is supposed to be used, meaning stay fast, she will always bring you home.

The 109 is extremely stiff in a high speed dives, what makes it very difficult to use in proper BnZ attacks.

 

I agree with you and Bounder. What makes 190 loose its edge is the sound system of DCS, which makes avoiding an attack much easier. When we get a new DM, it will prove even more effective.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

And the difficulty in glimpsing out targets too...

 

I rarely pick the 190, although I really like it's "handling", but I know that using it correctly / "historically" means B & Z...

 

Now, most of the time I pick the 51d or the 109k-4 because I fly low trying to see any hints of aircraft in the distance just above the horizon ( and above me ... ). From up there, att 12k and more, I can't see a damn object down bellow :-(

[Solty]

And the difficulty in glimpsing out targets too...

 

I rarely pick the 190, although I really like it's "handling", but I know that using it correctly / "historically" means B & Z...

 

Now, most of the time I pick the 51d or the 109k-4 because I fly low trying to see any hints of aircraft in the distance just above the horizon ( and above me ... ). From up there, att 12k and more, I can't see a damn object down bellow :-(

Agreed, the current spoting system "update" made things way harder. From what I saw, one can spot P-51D from 25km, Fw190from around 15km and 109 from 5km. And that is using zoom in and out all the time with great focus. And still you will have problems finding them.

[robban75]

Pilots of the JG26 didn't hesitate to dogfight even Yak-3's. As I interpret the texts they weren't using b & z tactics during these engagements but rather close range turn fights.

 

Despite the D-9's poor turn performance it seems the JG26 pilots did very well against light and agile aircrafts. :)

 

They rated the Yak-3 as fast and maneuverable with excellent turning qualities.

[SO_Nite2]

+10 Not only turns, but she becomes the super agile fighter we all have read about, it's very important to get the rear tank empty first. With full tanks you have to be careful though, and agility isn't brilliant whatsoever, only roll rate is good but not that much until you're on the fuel sweet spot.

 

 

IMHO the thing is you're comparing apples and oranges, and not only, you're mixing up models and dates.

 

It seems people tends to forget we have the ultimate 109, even though almost all 109 had a good climb rate compared to current counterparts, not so were other performances and specially top speed. Earlier models than K4 lacked so good performances in one or another aspects (while sometimes having better ones in others). Here we have the Fw190D9, a more or less later model, but not even close to "the ultimate 190", being that Ta152C and H. Those models really kicked in the ass everything, including Bf109K4. I don't dare to say this or that 109 model should be the one compared to D9, but it isn't K4 definitely. Albeit still Dora keeps on par, even improving slightly, P-51 performances, and Dora low level top speed is unmatched.

 

 

The 190s first Spit IX was design to counter were early models, A2, A3, A4 at best, those really were a big step forward for Germans for awhile, again in top speed (almost 100Km/H better than Spit V), but also agility. Of course agility doesn't mean it could out turn a Spit, but it could fly faster the wider radium turn meaning a better manoeuvrability. Dora can still do that over P-51 and K4, but not with a so great margin as firsts 190 did. Anyway, that's a feature you have to master before using it, and it's not an easy one, if not you'll find yourself with no speed and no altitude just trying to turn like mad for your life.

 

 

Besides that, 109 fanboys usually forget 190 was an technical wonder, the first ever aeroplane which almost all controls were electrical, with a primitive form of what we call nowadays ergonomics, everything at hand in cockpit, and ease of use for the pilot who could concentrate on combat instead of management. 109 have a bit of that with Komandogerat, but not in a so high level as 190. You're right in a sim we may be a bit unaware of those refinements and make not so huge difference, but IRL of course everything matters. When you read Dora manual you can only wonder how well designed this bird is.

 

 

S!

 

P.S.: forget about comparing other simulators, those games has to be balanced due to playability and we don't know yet different models than current in a DCS modelling level.

 

+1000 Manowar

[Ala13_ManOWar]

+1000 Manowar

Welcome mate, good to see you around here :beer: .

 

 

S!

[MAD-MM]

For the 109 fanboys :lol:it was build in the 1930 years, was for that time like the Spit one of the most advanced design choices for this time, they keep this bird up under constant bombing most of the Time with Allied Fighter designs can not be that bad.

Fw190 was an early 1940 most of the Luftwaffe high command and pilots hate that electrical design and the radial Engine, 190 was short before a death birth.( That changed over Time)

But I like to fly both there have simply different characteristics, when you can not run away you have to dogfight and there simply a third Plane that's come in with high speed and altitude advantage and your are gone that's all, Pilots prevent from Dogfights like we enjoy today on the MP Servers because you are slow and low.

PS: Kurt Tank did many advanced Designs like wooden "copy" Bomber Ta-154 example.

Edited November 29, 2016 by MAD-MM

[Ala13_ManOWar]

For the 109 fanboys :lol:it was build in the 1930 years, was for that time like the Spit one of the most advanced design choices for this time, they keep this bird up under constant bombing most of the Time with Allied Fighter designs can not be that bad.

Who says it's bad? But still 190 is usually overlooked :smilewink:.

 

Makes sense pilots didn't trust electrical systems on the 190 back then, the first ever using them, they probably thought electrical stuff instead of mechanical had to be unreliable and definitely bad like all new and revolutionary things. History has proven that's uncertain, as you rely on all your electrical devices on a daily basis, don't you? :thumbup:

 

 

S!

[Tomsk]

I have also noticed that planes such as the 190 (and P-47, and other very strongly BnZ focused aircraft) often don't do as well in simulators as they did in real life. I think a huge part of the difference is whether you are flying to get kills, or flying to survive. If you want kills going towards the nearest enemy, and turning for all your are worth is probably the quickest way, and the 190 sucks at that. However, if survival is your goal the FW-190 D9 has some fantastic attributes. Real pilots valued speed hugely, speed meant if you didn't want to fight you could choose not to. The FW 190 D9 is really fast down on the deck. Even the (also really fast) P-51 can't catch it at WEP, and the D9 has a lot more WEP time available than any of its competition. It also dives incredibly well, and these attributes together make it almost impossible to catch if it has a few km's of altitude to play with.

 

That said, if you do you want to go on the offensive and dogfight I've found they key is the roll rate and high-speed maneuverability. The 190 out rolls everything, and although it turns badly at slow speed it's an entirely different matter if you first dive to 650 kph. Here it beats everything, and the plane is probably the ultimate high-speed scissors machine. Not even other good high-speed scissors planes (such as the P-51 and P-47) are as good at it as the 190.

[Solty]

Well, not really. The 190 has amazing roll at medium speeds, which peaks at around 420kph. At 580 their roll is nearly the same. Above that, the P51 becomes superior.

 

But yeah, what 190 can do with its roll is like magic. :3

[Tomsk]

Ha oops, yeah 400 kph not 400 mph (650 kph). But anyway you get the idea ;-)

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

Most people fly the 190 wrong and they overall are seeking dogfights in sims, while in reality most air to air kills where done by high speed surprise attacks, in which the 190 shines.

The impression of some pilots that the 190 could out turn a 109 could be because she turned better at high speed.

If you fly a 190 how she is supposed to be used, meaning stay fast, she will always bring you home.

The 109 is extremely stiff in a high speed dives, what makes it very difficult to use in proper BnZ attacks.

 

+1

 

looking at how its implemented in dcs, i can understand why real life pilots considered the 190 the better aircraft. and i can also see how 190 pilots outturned 109 pilots...unlike in simulations, real pilots tend to have the desire to stay alive.

[Krupi]

+10 Not only turns, but she becomes the super agile fighter we all have read about, it's very important to get the rear tank empty first. With full tanks you have to be careful though, and agility isn't brilliant whatsoever, only roll rate is good but not that much until you're on the fuel sweet spot.

 

 

IMHO the thing is you're comparing apples and oranges, and not only, you're mixing up models and dates.

 

It seems people tends to forget we have the ultimate 109, even though almost all 109 had a good climb rate compared to current counterparts, not so were other performances and specially top speed. Earlier models than K4 lacked so good performances in one or another aspects (while sometimes having better ones in others). Here we have the Fw190D9, a more or less later model, but not even close to "the ultimate 190", being that Ta152C and H. Those models really kicked in the ass everything, including Bf109K4. I don't dare to say this or that 109 model should be the one compared to D9, but it isn't K4 definitely. Albeit still Dora keeps on par, even improving slightly, P-51 performances, and Dora low level top speed is unmatched.

 

 

The 190s first Spit IX was design to counter were early models, A2, A3, A4 at best, those really were a big step forward for Germans for awhile, again in top speed (almost 100Km/H better than Spit V), but also agility. Of course agility doesn't mean it could out turn a Spit, but it could fly faster the wider radium turn meaning a better manoeuvrability. Dora can still do that over P-51 and K4, but not with a so great margin as firsts 190 did. Anyway, that's a feature you have to master before using it, and it's not an easy one, if not you'll find yourself with no speed and no altitude just trying to turn like mad for your life.

 

 

Besides that, 109 fanboys usually forget 190 was an technical wonder, the first ever aeroplane which almost all controls were electrical, with a primitive form of what we call nowadays ergonomics, everything at hand in cockpit, and ease of use for the pilot who could concentrate on combat instead of management. 109 have a bit of that with Komandogerat, but not in a so high level as 190. You're right in a sim we may be a bit unaware of those refinements and make not so huge difference, but IRL of course everything matters. When you read Dora manual you can only wonder how well designed this bird is.

 

 

S!

 

P.S.: forget about comparing other simulators, those games has to be balanced due to playability and we don't know yet different models than current in a DCS modelling level.

 

+1

 

People forget that one of the biggest aces in the 190 arsenal is the ability to throw off a pursuer with the high rate of spin, fom the books I have read the ailerons of the 190 turned a few RAF pilots green with envy.

 

This will really shine when sound radar is removed me thinks :thumbup:

[Krupi]

A huge issue with all sums is that we cannot simulate the effort it required to actually fly these aircraft the 109 was very heavy on the controls at high speed for example and other aircraft weren't.

 

This is why some people ask for fatigue to be simulated, however such a thing came down to the pilot and how they used the aircraft.

 

In Eric Hartmanns book he described the 109 as a bnz and the 190 as the dogfighter on the east front.