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Grudge Match 3 - Sign Up Thread


FLANKERATOR

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Big thanks to Flankerator for running round 3 registration! Took a huge load off me and was conducted professionally and efficiently!

 

I hope those who were concerned about the SA Ranking have that put to ease, as we have many players on board from the open registration.

 

looking forward to seeing you guys Saturday!

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I just checked through the Tacview to see reasons for aircraft losses! Leading cause of loss was by far due to either not detecting a threat, or failure to react to the threat properly (being distracted by another target, for example).

 

List of causes of aircraft loss:

 

Failure to detect enemy fighter threat or failure to react properly to the threat: 47

 

Losses during head-on 1 vs 1 missile exchange: 2

 

Maneuver kills (crashed during maneuvering in combat): 2

 

Mid air collisions: 2

 

Friendly fire incidents: 2

 

Clean 1 vs 1 loss from neutral merge: 1 (This one went to the F-5, still ended up in another head-on confrontation, but what a great gun shot from Martini!)

 

Shot down by SAM (Sa-13): 1

 

Revenge from the grave(destroyed by a bandit presumed to be dead): 1

 

Engine failure(out of fuel most likely): 1

 

Clean 1 vs 1 losses from neutral position due to superior maneuvering of opponent: 0

 

Losses fully accountable to differences in aircraft type performances: 0


Edited by Stuge
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I can crawl here after it all ended and just say for those who was sad about ranking places:

 

"Your house your rules", yes organizers can do whatever they want with their event.

 

And for organisers:

 

If you would say "guys we want to promote our own users of SA community so they will be given priority this time" plain and straight, I think there will be no questionts after that.

 

Instead of this you pulled some commentaries after which one could think that there is no good pilots apart form SA ranking list (that was the reason of bitching in this thread).

 

Anyway our MiG-21 squad enjoyed watching this event and me and some other guys promoted it in our biggest DCS facebook group and we had many positive feedbacks from people who was watching it!

AKA LazzySeal

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If you would say "guys we want to promote our own users of SA community so they will be given priority this time" plain and straight, I think there will be no questionts after that.

 

Instead of this you pulled some commentaries after which one could think that there is no good pilots apart form SA ranking list (that was the reason of bitching in this thread).

 

Anyway our MiG-21 squad enjoyed watching this event and me and some other guys promoted it in our biggest DCS facebook group and we had many positive feedbacks from people who was watching it!

I agree with the thought that SA ranking giving a false impression on ability within the DCS community, but I think what you do get with SA ranked pilots are pilots that have given a lot to the progression of community events, not just taking part but organising, hosting etc. and not forgetting one important factor, commitment to attending.

 

There are plenty of talented players that don't take part in such events so to label the top 10, 15 or whatever the cream of DCS is a bit of hyperbole, i'm sure in the name of showcase for dramatic effect. But why not, after all it's just a bit of fun. I can tell you though i've been pulling my flight to pieces and it was pretty shambolic and certainly not worthy of such status.

"[51☭] FROSTIE" #55

51st PVO "BISONS"

Fastest MiG pilot in the world - TCR'10

https://100kiap.org

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I can crawl here after it all ended and just say for those who was sad about ranking places:

 

"Your house your rules", yes organizers can do whatever they want with their event.

 

And for organisers:

 

If you would say "guys we want to promote our own users of SA community so they will be given priority this time" plain and straight, I think there will be no questionts after that.

 

Instead of this you pulled some commentaries after which one could think that there is no good pilots apart form SA ranking list (that was the reason of bitching in this thread).

 

Anyway our MiG-21 squad enjoyed watching this event and me and some other guys promoted it in our biggest DCS facebook group and we had many positive feedbacks from people who was watching it!

 

No one said ALL top players are ranked by SA, of course there must be good sticks out there that did not take part in SA events, hence they don't feature there.

 

However, SA rankings has nothing to do with nepotism as this is the word that had been brought up initially.

 

We don't rank players based on anything but their PvP performances.

 

And no, attendance is not the way to go, you can attend as many SA sanctioned events as you want, if you don't score high enough, you won't earn a single SA point.

 

This is no MVP community voting or AI shooting contest, this is white knuckle PvP where only proficiency, skills and experience can set you apart.

 

If there are peeps who think they are good PvP players and dislike the fact that they don't feature on the rankings, please, you are welcome to participate in any of our events to try to smash Stuge in a Top Gun tourney or beat the consistency of those who feature in the Hall of Fame. We love competition and everytime we discover a new talent, it makes things so much better.

 

Most of our events are open to the public but some will be reserved for top ranked players, this is the least we can do to reward those competitors who excelled consistently. This is no private league though and we have had plenty of events where registration was open to all and ran first come first serve.

 

Esporting in DCS is still at its very early stages and people are not used yet to competition but things are happening and moving in the right direction.

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Situational Awareness: https://sa-sim.com/ | The Air Combat Dojo: https://discord.gg/Rz77eFj

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No one said ALL top players are ranked by SA, of course there must be good sticks out there that did not take part in SA events, hence they don't feature there.

 

However, SA rankings has nothing to do with nepotism as this is the word that had been brought up initially.

 

We don't rank players based on anything but their PvP performances.

 

And no, attendance is not the way to go, you can attend as many SA sanctioned events as you want, if you don't score high enough, you won't earn a single SA point.

 

This is no MVP community voting or AI shooting contest, this is white knuckle PvP where only proficiency, skills and experience can set you apart.

 

If there are peeps who think they are good PvP players and dislike the fact that they don't feature on the rankings, please, you are welcome to participate in any of our events to try to smash Stuge in a Top Gun tourney or beat the consistency of those who feature in the Hall of Fame. We love competition and everytime we discover a new talent, it makes things so much better.

 

Most of our events are open to the public but some will be reserved for top ranked players, this is the least we can do to reward those competitors who excelled consistently. This is no private league though and we have had plenty of events where registration was open to all and ran first come first serve.

 

Esporting in DCS is still at its very early stages and people are not used yet to competition but things are happening and moving in the right direction.

 

You don't need to explain it to me though. I just said the reason. I wasn't one who complained.

 

Also think about those people who never flew FC3 events and come to DCS with MiG-21 F-5 or Mirage lately, how they are going to earn something for that short period of time? (just a thought since you described me something).

 

As I said your house - your rules, stupid to say otherwise.

 

Frankly I don't even know what nepotism means and I don't want to google it cuz obviously I'm lazzy. I was just pointing out that those people complained not over nothing I analyzed and pointed it out as my humble opinion...

 

And another humble opinion "This is no MVP community voting or AI shooting contest, this is white knuckle PvP where only proficiency, skills and experience can set you apart." I can say that about Counter Strike or Rocket League for instance or StarCraft, sorry but not about DCS, at least in its current state. And you addressed it, competitive for DCS is not really a word right now. Simple thing like TrackIR already can divide people (there will be exceptions ofcourse).

 

Take it as my personal feedback (means you can say me to **** off and I will receive it :D ): if you would keep it in simple words and more humble there would be no people with butthurt complaining in thread about rankings and stuff." Just simple usage of "PvP based community with X years experience" instead of " This is no MVP community voting or AI shooting contest, this is white knuckle PvP where only proficiency, skills and experience can set you apart" already would set another mood. Its not like you selling used cars, right?

AKA LazzySeal

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Track IR, hardcore vs simplified systems...etc may affect things a bit but that, alone, won't win competitions.

 

No issues though , wording depends on mindset, you have the right to dislike how it comes across but this is how we see competition in DCS and would like to foster it. Thanks for your feedback.

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Situational Awareness: https://sa-sim.com/ | The Air Combat Dojo: https://discord.gg/Rz77eFj

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No one said ALL top players are ranked by SA, of course there must be good sticks out there that did not take part in SA events, hence they don't feature there.

 

However, SA rankings has nothing to do with nepotism as this is the word that had been brought up initially.

 

We don't rank players based on anything but their PvP performances.

 

And no, attendance is not the way to go, you can attend as many SA sanctioned events as you want, if you don't score high enough, you won't earn a single SA point.

 

This is no MVP community voting or AI shooting contest, this is white knuckle PvP where only proficiency, skills and experience can set you apart.

 

If there are peeps who think they are good PvP players and dislike the fact that they don't feature on the rankings, please, you are welcome to participate in any of our events to try to smash Stuge in a Top Gun tourney or beat the consistency of those who feature in the Hall of Fame. We love competition and everytime we discover a new talent, it makes things so much better.

 

Most of our events are open to the public but some will be reserved for top ranked players, this is the least we can do to reward those competitors who excelled consistently. This is no private league though and we have had plenty of events where registration was open to all and ran first come first serve.

 

Esporting in DCS is still at its very early stages and people are not used yet to competition but things are happening and moving in the right direction.

 

It is undeniable that those pilots in this SA Ranking are outstanding and dedicated. The community has surely a lot of respect to them.

However, this is FC3 ranking. We would like to see also a DCS level ranking. I am sure the many of these pilots will top both rankings. I am equally sure that we will see new talented pilots making it to the top and that what will be interesting.

IMHO this tournament should have been based on a DCS ranking and not FC3 one, since we were having F5s and Mig21s.

 

My 2 pennies.

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It is undeniable that those pilots in this SA Ranking are outstanding and dedicated. The community has surely a lot of respect to them.

However, this is FC3 ranking. We would like to see also a DCS level ranking. I am sure the many of these pilots will top both rankings. I am equally sure that we will see new talented pilots making it to the top and that what will be interesting.

IMHO this tournament should have been based on a DCS ranking and not FC3 one, since we were having F5s and Mig21s.

 

My 2 pennies.

 

It's a DCS Rankings not FC3.

 

You can check our Past Events Page, you'll see many DCS modules have already been featured.

http://sa-sim.com/dcs-past-battles/

 

Moreover, SA Rankings is always based on last 12 months so a lot of 'old' FC-based events are now irrelevant rankings wise.

 

Besides, I dont personally believe that the box makes the pilot, rather the other way around.

A good stick will be good, FC level or DCS level, we try to reward pilot proficiency in A2A and A2G not switch-flipping and button-pressing skills :p and we are testing that through a variety of DCS modules anways.

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Situational Awareness: https://sa-sim.com/ | The Air Combat Dojo: https://discord.gg/Rz77eFj

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I just checked through the Tacview to see reasons for aircraft losses! Leading cause of loss was by far due to either not detecting a threat, or failure to react to the threat properly (being distracted by another target, for example). ...

 

Nice statistics. I'd just like to point out that the "Losses fully accountable to differences in aircraft type performances" doesn't really do justice as if you know you are being attacked you can take defensive measures and this is where the differences come out. Fishbed can keep turning hard and denying sensor nose without any loss of turn rate while Tiger and Viggen clearly turned into a rock sled after a hard turn. More informative would be "losses avoided by differences in aircraft type performance" but judging this from the ACMI is quite iffy.

 

Not denying that it was the tactics and strategy that caused our loss though. We just need to eat the humble pie to the last crumble and be wiser the next time.

 

And another humble opinion "This is no MVP community voting or AI shooting contest, this is white knuckle PvP where only proficiency, skills and experience can set you apart." I can say that about Counter Strike or Rocket League for instance or StarCraft, sorry but not about DCS, at least in its current state. And you addressed it, competitive for DCS is not really a word right now. Simple thing like TrackIR already can divide people (there will be exceptions ofcourse).

 

Stuge (#1) doesn't have TrackIR and Razer (#4) also didn't have it during the matches he earned his ranking so it's clearly not an issue. I can also testify that they are equally though opponents regardless if you are flying P-51, M-2000C, F-86, MiG-21, Su-27 or F-15C. Many of the top ranked pilots also don't have the latest and greatest flight sticks either (for example, Stuge and Razer). I can say for sure that DCS isn't equipment sport where you can easily get advantage over your opponents with expensive equipment. The people who are top ranked fly a lot and train hard besides having talent. What they don't have is some priviledge that put them there (besides having time to practice and take part in ranked competitions). You can also rise to the top fairly quickly if you have the talent as you'll likely get to top 10 or even top 5 with just two MVP scores.

DCS Finland: Suomalainen DCS yhteisö -- Finnish DCS community

--------------------------------------------------

SF Squadron

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Grudge Match 3 - Sign Up Thread

 

It's a DCS Rankings not FC3.

 

 

Dont get offended but it is in fact an FC3 ranking. As soon as you put FC3 modules in the ranking then the top pilots get their scores with those modules therefore it is an FC3 ranking. A DCS level ranking would be with DCS level modules.

 

 

 

 

 

You can check our Past Events Page, you'll see many DCS modules have already been featured.

 

http://sa-sim.com/dcs-past-battles/

 

 

Answer above

 

 

 

 

 

Besides, I dont personally believe that the box makes the pilot, rather the other way around.

 

What does this even mean? The pilot skills are never to be minimized but putting the same skilled pilote in a real module and an FC3 module is not the same thing.

 

 

 

 

A good stick will be good, FC level or DCS level, we try to reward pilot proficiency in A2A and A2G not switch-flipping and button-pressing skills :p and we are testing that through a variety of DCS modules anways.

 

Sorry, cant agree with that. The workload in a full module is higher than an FC3, more deadly mistakes can be made in a real module. That plays a crucial part in a fight. It's not about throwing switches. You cant put an FC3 module and a full DCS module at the same level.


Edited by TomCatMucDe
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Sorry, I cant agree with that. The workload in a full module is higher than an FC3, more deadly mistakes can be made in a real module. That plays a crucial part in a fight. It's not about throwing switches. You cant put an FC3 module and a full DCS module at the same level.

 

I don't agree here, I think you're confusing fidelity with fighter generation. The principal of combat is the same whether you use a MIG-21 or an F-15, there is not a great deal to process in a MiG21 compared with an F-15 other than having more dedicated modes to fighting in the newer gen aircraft therefore less workload, there is certainly less to do when fighting in a ww2 aircraft than an FC3 fighter. The process of Air to Air combat in a Mirage is virtually identical to the DCS F-15. The whole concept of combat is pretty much side by side whether it be understanding turn rate, energy, defensive maneuvers etc. Now if you want to have a competition on who can start their aircraft up faster then i'd agree with you.

"[51☭] FROSTIE" #55

51st PVO "BISONS"

Fastest MiG pilot in the world - TCR'10

https://100kiap.org

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I don't agree here, I think you're confusing fidelity with fighter generation. The principal of combat is the same whether you use a MIG-21 or an F-15, there is not a great deal to process in a MiG21 compared with an F-15 other than having more dedicated modes to fighting in the newer gen aircraft therefore less workload, there is certainly less to do when fighting in a ww2 aircraft than an FC3 fighter. The process of Air to Air combat in a Mirage is virtually identical to the DCS F-15. The whole concept of combat is pretty much side by side whether it be understanding turn rate, energy, defensive maneuvers etc. Now if you want to have a competition on who can start their aircraft up faster then i'd agree with you.

 

 

Confusing mig21 and F15 systems. Frostie, I hope you you can recognize that people on the forum are able to build a coherent idea.

I absolutely not confuse 2 min contemporary systems. The workload in a real F15 is higher than FC3 F15. I have flown the F16C in BMS which has more advanced systems than the F15C and the workload is higher and more complex. I'm sure an experienced pilot like you know that is not all about dogfight modes...

 

 

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Confusing mig21 and F15 systems. Frostie, I hope you you can recognize that people on the forum are able to build a coherent idea.

I absolutely not confuse 2 min contemporary systems. The workload in a real F15 is higher than FC3 F15. I have flown the F16C in BMS which has more advanced systems than the F15C and the workload is higher and more complex. I'm sure an experienced pilot like you know that is not all about dogfight modes...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Sorry, I fly BMS too and don't recognise much difference in A2A other than having more tools at my disposal in the Falcon such as zoom, bar scan options, more azimuth options and an effective TWS system not to mention helmet mode. :)

 

If you enter a fight not set up for fighting you've already lost.

 

There is a case for setting up systems before getting into action but this is all procedural and should become as simple as booting up windows and starting DCS.

"[51☭] FROSTIE" #55

51st PVO "BISONS"

Fastest MiG pilot in the world - TCR'10

https://100kiap.org

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I absolutely not confuse 2 min contemporary systems. The workload in a real F15 is higher than FC3 F15. I have flown the F16C in BMS which has more advanced systems than the F15C and the workload is higher and more complex. I'm sure an experienced pilot like you know that is not all about dogfight modes...

 

More advanced doesn't mean more work load. Fighting in a BMS F-16 or DCS FC3 F-15C is pretty similar from cognitive workload point of view. If you want to you can simply ignore all the advanced features in F-16 and you have pretty much a FC3 level plane. But if you don't ignore them you will have much more capability that will actually decrease your workload as you don't have to do the things yourself. For example, DLZ computation is useless in FC3 F-15C so you do it in your head instead, as you do navigation, keeping SA on friendlies, calculating your flight profiles, etc. Granted there's more workload to learn to use all the systems but in the end you are actually getting by easier in it compared to FC3 planes.

DCS Finland: Suomalainen DCS yhteisö -- Finnish DCS community

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More advanced doesn't mean more work load. Fighting in a BMS F-16 or DCS FC3 F-15C is pretty similar from cognitive workload point of view. If you want to you can simply ignore all the advanced features in F-16 and you have pretty much a FC3 level plane. But if you don't ignore them you will have much more capability that will actually decrease your workload as you don't have to do the things yourself. For example, DLZ computation is useless in FC3 F-15C so you do it in your head instead, as you do navigation, keeping SA on friendlies, calculating your flight profiles, etc. Granted there's more workload to learn to use all the systems but in the end you are actually getting by easier in it compared to FC3 planes.

 

 

 

I think you pulled the trigger a bit too fast here. Of course more advanced means less workload. Otherwise my argument comparing F16 doesn't make sense and is illogical. Let me explain you again:

F16 has more advanced system than F15. It has naturally less workload. Yet when you compare F16 BMS with FC3 F15 you still have more load.

 

Frostie doesn't agree, I can live with that.

 

 

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Nice statistics. I'd just like to point out that the "Losses fully accountable to differences in aircraft type performances" doesn't really do justice as if you know you are being attacked you can take defensive measures and this is where the differences come out. Fishbed can keep turning hard and denying sensor nose without any loss of turn rate while Tiger and Viggen clearly turned into a rock sled after a hard turn.

 

You have a point Bushmanni but this match was decided by numbers. Many times the furballs were something like 5 vs 2, you can't expect a good outcome from that... besides, F-5 wins rolling scissors easily if you can convert to that flow, and even if that doesn't automatically get you the kill, it will buy time for your team mate to help you ;)


Edited by Stuge
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F16 has more advanced system than F15. It has naturally less workload. Yet when you compare F16 BMS with FC3 F15 you still have more load.

 

Frostie doesn't agree, I can live with that.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Rather than just skirting around the subject why not just say what this extra workload in A2A combat is supposed to be?

"[51☭] FROSTIE" #55

51st PVO "BISONS"

Fastest MiG pilot in the world - TCR'10

https://100kiap.org

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About FC3... sorry but dynamics of combat scenarios are more complex and have more variables than engagements with older generation fighters. From my point of view, FC3 (+M2000C now) is a harder package to master as a whole than 3rd gen, Korea era, or WWII era aircraft.

 

It's easy to argue that FC3 is simple because AIM-120 does all the work, and yes it does, even for the greenest of pilots... until you face an opponent that actually has some experience... and then you get killed every time. :)

 

Advanced systems modeling and clickable cockpit is mostly just an extra layer between pilot-aircraft-interface, which requires a bit of time to learn in itself, but once you know it that's it, there's no random dynamics, no endless variables, the switches always have to be used in the same way. Not related in any way with raw air combat skill, but is a separate entity.

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Guys,

 

Can we stay on topic here? DCS vs. FC3 discussion could go on endlessly. Flanker wrote an excellent AAR and should be thanked for taking the time to do so.

 

Btw, did respawning after landing and coming to a complete stop count as a loss? During the match briefing, Hook said that would be ok.

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