To easy flight behavier?

[Azrayen]

AFAIK, you can't disable FBW, not in the Mirage, F-16, F-117...not sure about other aircraft.

 

Indeed you can't.

No purely hydraulic or mechanic backup.

That's a (far too) common misconception. ;)

[red_coreSix]

From the "Flight control system" document. (The link mvsgas provided).

 

(...)" it uses conventional hydro-mechanical ailerons and differential stabilator for roll control, collective stabilator for pitch control, and a rudder on each vertical for yaw control.  In addition, there is a dual-channel, high-authority, three-axis CAS (Control Augmentation System) superimposed on the hydro-mechanical system.  The CAS is utilized to shape aircraft response to pilot inputs, as well as provide three-axis damping and autopilot functions.  The CAS can also provide aircraft control in the event of a mechanical system failure"(...)

 

I read dual channel, not three channels. And it doesn't mention any auto-trim, just damping.

[shagrat]

I read dual channel, not three channels. And it doesn't mention any auto-trim, just damping.

Autopilot functions are based on the Dual Channel, three axis CAS as elaborated in the document... but you are possibly right and the US Airforce has it wrong in the manual.

ED/Belsimtek then, led by wrong conclusions put the three CAS switches onto the left console.

 

At least we have three switches in the control settings, called CAS Pitch (LCtrl+1), CAS Roll (LCtrl+2) and CAS Yaw (LCtrl+3) for the Autopilot system to work.

So if you think you are right, you should post a bug report to ED to fix the "additional" two axis, that according to your statement, don't exist. :dunno:

[red_coreSix]

Autopilot functions are based on the Dual Channel, three axis CAS as elaborated in the document... but you are possibly right and the US Airforce has it wrong in the manual.

ED/Belsimtek then, led by wrong conclusions put the three CAS switches onto the left console.

 

At least we have three switches in the control settings, called CAS Pitch (LCtrl+1), CAS Roll (LCtrl+2) and CAS Yaw (LCtrl+3) for the Autopilot system to work.

So if you think you are right, you should post a bug report to ED to fix the "additional" two axis, that according to your statement, don't exist. :dunno:

 

You're missing the point, does it auto-trim in all three axis? No.

[shagrat]

You're missing the point, does it auto-trim in all three axis? No.

I am missing your point, maybe, but as the whole thread isn't about "auto-trim". :huh:

 

You said the F-15 is only stabilized in pitch. When mvsgas showed up with a pretty good description on the FCS you diverted to nit-picking about channels vs. axis, then autopilot

Now you try to distract from axis/autopilot to auto-trim...

 

As far as I understood, the F-15's CAS monitors the inputs, corrects/limits drastic input and with the rudder input adjusts the rudder to stabilize, when necessary.

The CAS is linked to the Autopilot which uses it to control the plane, which by the way requires the Autopilot to trim the plane to keep course and attitude.

 

So either I've totally misread the documents, manual etc. or the CAS is controlling a lot more than just dampening the pitch axis...

 

As in my first post I still think the statement (...)"the F-15 has a FBW light"(...) is ok.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2972173

[Owl]

I have never flown a Mirage 2000 or other fighter aircraft in my real life, and I think no one of you either have....

 

Well the Mirage have FBW, but i am still wondering how stabile it is in fx landing approachs. Airbus have also had FBW in long time, but then an Airbus pilot try to land the aircraft, he makes a lot of corrections all the way down to the tarmac.

 

As somebody says, the F-16 also have FBW, but my experience from Falcon BMS 4.0, the Falcon isn't that stabile as the Mirage. I think the BMS F-16 is more realistic.

 

In a final approach in crosswind, the aircraft is drifting a lot to a side, away from the direction the wind comes from. Normally the pilot have to lean the aircraft up to the wind, but I don't feel you have to do it in the Mirage. Tried to find Youtube clips with Mirage landings, but didn't find any good ones, but found a few F-16 landings, and here the aircraft make small corrections the way down, as I think the RAZBAM Mirage should do as well, but I think miss.

 

It is opinion, but as I said in the beginning, I am not a real life fighter pilot...

[jojo]

There are YouTube videos with DCS cross wind landing in Mirage.

 

It behaves as expected.

 

Then M-2000 as 0 lateral acceleration law on yaw axis, something missing on F-16.

[red_coreSix]

I am missing your point, maybe, but as the whole thread isn't about "auto-trim". :huh:

 

You said the F-15 is only stabilized in pitch. When mvsgas showed up with a pretty good description on the FCS you diverted to nit-picking about channels vs. axis, then autopilot

Now you try to distract from axis/autopilot to auto-trim...

 

As far as I understood, the F-15's CAS monitors the inputs, corrects/limits drastic input and with the rudder input adjusts the rudder to stabilize, when necessary.

The CAS is linked to the Autopilot which uses it to control the plane, which by the way requires the Autopilot to trim the plane to keep course and attitude.

 

So either I've totally misread the documents, manual etc. or the CAS is controlling a lot more than just dampening the pitch axis...

 

As in my first post I still think the statement (...)"the F-15 has a FBW light"(...) is ok.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2972173

 

Lol, what? I never said it is only "stabilized in pitch". I have been talking about auto-trim the entire time, never "distracting" from anything. I said the auto-trim only works in the pitch-channel. You started diverting to the CAS and damping, don't turn this on me now.

You could call the F-15 having a "mechanical FBW", but the Su-27 has a real FBW.

[shagrat]

The F-15 has no FBW at all. It has a mechanical auto-trimmer that tries to keep the plane trimmed to 1G (pitch only).

 

Yep, sorry. That was about the auto-trim... Still what do you think the other two switches for roll and yaw, do?

 

I understood, they adjust the roll and yaw control?

 

So the pilot inputs are changed/adjusted through the CAS and not directly moving the control panel, right?

 

Thus I said a FBW light.

 

Anyway, this was about the Mirage, and that has a full blown Fly-by-wire,

 

And the "easy" flight behaviour is to be expected.

[red_coreSix]

The other switches control the CAS for roll and yaw, as in turning the filtering on and off iirc. But if you call simple SAS "FBW light", about every somewhat modern aircraft would have that. The "FBW-ish" feeling of the F-15 is due to the auto-trim, and that's all I ever wanted to state.

[Azrayen]

I have never flown a Mirage 2000 or other fighter aircraft in my real life, and I think no one of you either have....

Actually, some people have flown both the real aicraft and the DCS module. And their feedback is more on the line of "in this or that situation, the DCS FM still lacks some stability". :angel:

[myHelljumper]

Then it's too hard :megalol:

[jaguara5]

The need to make constant corrections during crosswind landings depends primary from the wind conditions. A steady crosswind requires little correction, the opposite is true for changing crosswind with turbulence

2 months ago i visited a HAF M2000 base for an airshow and one of my multiple questions to the pilots was exactly the landing behaviour of the aircraft . The answer was, that landing is straightforward, the FBW makes all the job and keeps the nose steady. At apprx. 50feet the pilot retards slowly the throttle and simultaneously makes gently pitch up inputs (about 3 small inputs, the pilot demonstrated the movement with his hands).

Also they told that Crab is the used technique for crosswind landings and after touchdown, the aircraft aligns itself with the runway due to the big span between the 2 main wheels.

Here is landing footage, (form outside an in cockpit) min. 11- 14 .

The f-16 requires during landing a constant back pressure on the stick , it's how the fbw is programmed to give the pilot the feel of a traditional plane.

Edited December 5, 2016 by jaguara5

[mvsgas]

I have never flown a Mirage 2000 or other fighter aircraft in my real life, and I think no one of you either have....

 

Well the Mirage have FBW, but i am still wondering how stabile it is in fx landing approachs. Airbus have also had FBW in long time, but then an Airbus pilot try to land the aircraft, he makes a lot of corrections all the way down to the tarmac.

 

As somebody says, the F-16 also have FBW, but my experience from Falcon BMS 4.0, the Falcon isn't that stabile as the Mirage. I think the BMS F-16 is more realistic.

 

In a final approach in crosswind, the aircraft is drifting a lot to a side, away from the direction the wind comes from. Normally the pilot have to lean the aircraft up to the wind, but I don't feel you have to do it in the Mirage. Tried to find Youtube clips with Mirage landings, but didn't find any good ones, but found a few F-16 landings, and here the aircraft make small corrections the way down, as I think the RAZBAM Mirage should do as well, but I think miss.

 

It is opinion, but as I said in the beginning, I am not a real life fighter pilot...

 

Ok, but was was the point of the original post, do you think it need to be change or just talking that it "feels" not right to you? If you think it is wrong, I would think you would need to provide more than a "feeling". If RAZBAM changes FM due to any of our "feeling", where does it stop? What stops the next guys that says it feels to hard to fly?

 

Also I do not think is equitable to compare it to another aircraft in another sim. Which by the way, unless you have a stick based on pressure and a full cockpit, does not feel like the RL simulators or the RL F-16. It is of course very close, but if we are going to nick pick, less go all the way. In the military sim I had a bad PIO (from the lack of movement on the stick) that I never get in home flight sims.

 

Lastly, yes, I am no expert and I personally could not tell you whether the flight model of the Mirage, F-16 or any other aircraft is correct or not on this sim or another, but I have been in a F-16 while it is flying and have flown a military simulator of the F-16 and F-117, but that has nothing to do with it. There are many people that have a better understanding of these aircraft and their flight characteristics than me and have never flown one or been in one.

 

 

 

 

http://www.f-16.net/g3/f-16-photos/album03/album72/acb

 

http://www.f-16.net/crewchiefs-profile586.html

Edited December 5, 2016 by mvsgas

[kashmir]

AFAIK, you can't disable FBW, not in the Mirage, F-16, F-117...not sure about other aircraft.

 

I mis-spoke on that. I flipped the FBW gain switch while goofing around and noticed how immediately unstable the A/C was.

 

I am on day 4 with M2K so I am still learning.

[mvsgas]

I mis-spoke on that. I flipped the FBW gain switch while goofing around and noticed how immediately unstable the A/C was.

 

I am on day 4 with M2K so I am still learning.

 

I'm on day 338 (Julian calendar 2016) and I am still learning. I'm on day 2190 on the A-10C and still learning that as well.

[ZHeN]

The Su-27 has a fly-by-wire with artificially added nose-up/down movements when speeds changes. Sukhoi did this after pilots complained that they need to have a feel for speed.

Su-27 was meant to have 'full blown' FBW from the very beginning

the airframe wasn't even supposed to work with mechanical inputs

The Mirage 2000 is the only playable aircraft so far that has such a system.

not true :)

Edited December 5, 2016 by ZHeN

[Dahlbeck]

It's kind of weird that the Flanker needs constant trimming despite being FBW...?

[ZHeN]

well, it is what it is

rough soviet late 70's technology

can you imagine a soviet computer of that time ?

[metzger]

well, it is what it is

rough soviet late 70's technology

can you imagine a soviet computer of that time ?

Knowing the soviet technology during 80s-90s I am amazed that it flies at all

 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[OziRekt]

In the book "Hornet Country", which details the F-18 in Australian service, it describes how test pilots mentioned that the Mirage 2000 had "the most beautiful handling characteristics of any performance aircraft I have ever flown", and this was in comparison to the F-18, F-16, and of course the Mirage III. So it stands to reason that the Mirage in DCS handles so easily, because it's the same in real life.

[jaguara5]

http://www.icas.org/ICAS_ARCHIVE/ICAS1984/ICAS-84-4.5.1.pdf

Flying the mirage 2000 by wire , article form ex m2000 project pilot!

Must read!

[jaguara5]

You welcome! Hope that helps to finetune the fbw system!

[Teldja]

http://www.icas.org/ICAS_ARCHIVE/ICAS1984/ICAS-84-4.5.1.pdf

Flying the mirage 2000 by wire , article form ex m2000 project pilot!

Must read!

 

 

Thank you for sharing ! That was a very interesting document to read.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Teldja
Wording

[Fri13]

Noob here....

 

What I have read is that F-15 doesn't have a FBW but mechanically linked and computer augmented control surfaces that are there to keep the F-15 stable with some of the control inputs. So you can disable computer and fly manually with heavy stick but very dangerous and sensitive.

 

Su-27 being fully FBW systems there ain't linkage between control surfaces and stick, instead just electronical inputs are given to computer that does all, and keep it flying. And as was said, they added the flexibility to an control input as delays to improve the feeling of controls, instead like in Mirage or F-18 and so where you only send digital input and co outer does what you command.

 

Two different implementation from FBW system and one augmented with dampening.

What has the autopilots for what axis and co tell surfaces is then a different thing too.

 

And yes, Mirage 2000C feels like on rails, but that is fully computer controlled control surfaces so if you don't tell to ie. Roll then computer keeps you in given angle. If you roll and you stop tilting stick, computer does all the controls to stop rolling and lock your angle to moment you stopped tilting stick.

 

You can prefer any of the systems but some wants to feel controls and some don't even move the stick (F-16)

Edited December 13, 2016 by Fri13