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SAM sites setup


Bacab

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Hello everyone,

 

I'm looking for informations on the configuration of russian SAM sites IRL in the 90's so I can design realistic missions that involve penetration of enemy air defences.

 

More specifically I would like to know the proportion of each system in service (was it for instance 1/3 SA-10, 1/3 SA-11, 1/3 point defence SAM) and the likelihood to see those systems in service in other countries than Russia.

 

Thank you in advance for your answer.

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I know this website and nearly everything I know about IADS come from them (although caution should be taken when they are talking about relative performances of systems since they have a huge bias towards PLA/Russian) or from ACIG website.

 

However I have difficulties seeing the pig picture. For instance I haven't found yet answer to those questions :

- How many SA-10 site should I set up ? one by base, one every 100 km ?

- Should they be protected against low flying opponents rather by SA-19 or by SA-15 ?

- Were the SA-11 sites used in pair with SA-10 sites or by their own, co-localised or not ?

 

The aim is not to do something particularly difficult for the player or to do something balanced but it really is to do something "realistic-ish".

 

@Weta: thanks I'll look if I found it.

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Maybe this site can help you: http://geimint.blogspot.de/

 

On the right side you can find some overviews and analysis of several Strategic Sam Networks. Unfortunately russia is not among them, but many other countries that use soviet/russian doctrin. There are also google earth files included that you can import in google earth to display the SAM network there.

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DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

Tornado3 small.jpg

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DDR Strategic Air Defense: A Cold War Case Study: http://geimint.blogspot.de/2008/08/ddr-air-defense-cold-war-case-study.html

 

lol, looks like we linked the same website simultaneously :D

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DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

Tornado3 small.jpg

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Thank you all for your sources. I have a google earth overlay that might be useful and I'll study the website you have linked.

 

@Weta: is that the one ? https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1956490&postcount=22

 

EDIT : OK great with all this data I am more than satisfied :D

 

I honestly didn't think SA-2 would be that prominent in the area, it's a shame it is not depicted in DCS.


Edited by Bacab
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That's tough, the real answer is 'it depends'.

 

For example, against low grade threats a single SA-10 (+ friends :) ) could be a huge deterrent. What if you want to protect something really, really bad and you're facing high grade/modern threats?

 

Then you might end up building a SAM corridor consisting of 4-8 overlapping SA-10s (plus friends).

 

Generally you should layer your defenses: High altitude, medium altitude, and SHORAD and MANPADS.

 

There are doctrinal writings that show how many mobile SAMs you would send with the ground units as well.

 

Generally, SAMs will form overlapping fields of fire and you might find some of them will stay silent until you're inside the Rtr ... in RL.

 

Use MANPADs to plug gaps or spring ambushes. You can do it with other SAMs also, but in they may be better used elsewhere.

 

However I have difficulties seeing the pig picture. For instance I haven't found yet answer to those questions :

- How many SA-10 site should I set up ? one by base, one every 100 km ?

- Should they be protected against low flying opponents rather by SA-19 or by SA-15 ?

- Were the SA-11 sites used in pair with SA-10 sites or by their own, co-localised or not ?

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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That's tough, the real answer is 'it depends'.

 

For example, against low grade threats a single SA-10 (+ friends :) ) could be a huge deterrent. What if you want to protect something really, really bad and you're facing high grade/modern threats?

 

Then you might end up building a SAM corridor consisting of 4-8 overlapping SA-10s (plus friends).

 

Generally you should layer your defenses: High altitude, medium altitude, and SHORAD and MANPADS.

 

There are doctrinal writings that show how many mobile SAMs you would send with the ground units as well.

 

Generally, SAMs will form overlapping fields of fire and you might find some of them will stay silent until you're inside the Rtr ... in RL.

 

Use MANPADs to plug gaps or spring ambushes. You can do it with other SAMs also, but in they may be better used elsewhere.

 

 

Do those doctrinal writings say anything about the defence badged a country has to emplement those configuration? :D

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No, they're doctrine about deploying with ground forces :)

 

On the other hand, think like the OPFOR. If you wanted to protect your stuff, how would you do it? What kind of resources do you have, can you move them around? Can you set them in ambush positions?

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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No, they're doctrine about deploying with ground forces :)

 

On the other hand, think like the OPFOR. If you wanted to protect your stuff, how would you do it? What kind of resources do you have, can you move them around? Can you set them in ambush positions?

 

 

the point is how many of them do u have in the first place. (so you can moove them arround)

i mean how many units

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

TaliG - 373vFS

 

“Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances.”

Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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So then we have to ask 'which country' :) I think that data can be discovered.

 

I don't recall where I saw the ORBATs and other data on Russian hardware, unfortunately. Maybe someone else knows. All I remember was that you could expect a minimum of 6-8 SHORAD vehicles per battalion. I forget how many MANPADs teams.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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in any case , i dnt think that there is a country that can deploy so many layers of air defence on a single place (what dcs world simulates)... it is VERY expensive, (not for big military countries though RU USA .., but even there..)

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

TaliG - 373vFS

 

“Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances.”

Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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I often wonder about SAM site configurations myself. GGTharos first post caught my interest on SA-10 (S300P) site configurations.

 

FWIW here a few examples

 

BORTNEVO.jpg

 

ROSCHINO.jpg

 

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-SAM-Site-Configs-B.html may be a worth while site to draw from...

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I often wonder about SAM site configurations myself. GGTharos first post caught my interest on SA-10 (S300P) site configurations.

 

FWIW here a few examples

 

BORTNEVO.jpg

 

ROSCHINO.jpg

 

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-SAM-Site-Configs-B.html may be a worth while site to draw from...

 

nice pics, first pic is clearly a radar up and working, but lunchers are ready to move, lanchers are never parked like that on a war situation. Tharos can dedact alot more than i do from this pic :)

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

TaliG - 373vFS

 

“Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances.”

Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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Indeed I've found the answer I was looking for in the form of a map of SAM sites. It appears modern systems like sa-10... were quite rare indeed. A lot of countries with limited budget would have relied on legacy SAM with one or two modern systems around their capital back in the 90's. As far as I'm aware it might still be true today.

 

Edit: since someone quoted ausaairpower again I may repeat myself: they have interesting data on individual systems but they never talk about the way systems interact with each other. Moreover confronting facts to their analysis I found out they insist a lot on recent systems that indeed remain quite rare outside of Russia.


Edited by Bacab
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Indeed I've found the answer I was looking for in the form of a map of SAM sites. It appears modern systems like sa-10... were quite rare indeed. A lot of countries with limited budget would have relied on legacy SAM with one or two modern systems around their capital back in the 90's. As far as I'm aware it might still be true today.

 

 

it is true, even for countries that have ''problems'' with neighbour countries..because badget is not enough, simple

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

TaliG - 373vFS

 

“Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances.”

Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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Here is some additional data about doctrinal air defense organization for the late Soviet Union. First it is important to make a distinction between PVO and Army. The PVO were the air defense forces, responsible for the strategic air defense of the homeland. They were equipped with SA-1, SA-2, SA-3, SA-5 and SA-10. An overview about PVO assets in the Caucasus was already provided previously in the thread. The Army had its own tactical air defense for its own protection, equipped with various SHORAD, SA-4, SA-6, SA-8, SA-11, SA-12 and SA-15.

 

Army air defense doctrinal organization:

* 1 SAM Platoon per motor-rifle battalion: 9 MANPADS

* 1 Air Defense Battalion per motor-rifle/tank regiment: 6 2S6 Tunguska and 6 SA-13 and 18 MANPADS *OR*

* 1 Air Defense Battery per motor-rifle/tank regiment: 4 ZSU-23-4 Shilka and 4 SA-9/13

* 1 SAM Regiment per motor-rifle/tank division: 5 SA-6/8 batteries OR 4 SA-15 batteries. SA-6 was often found in tank divisions, SA-8 often in motor-rifle divisions. SA-15 replaced both. SA-6 batteries had one radar vehicle and 4 launchers. SA-8 batteries had 4 launchers with their own radar.

* 1 SAM Brigade per army: 9 SA-4 batteries OR 12 SA-11 batteries. SA-4 batteries had one tracking radar vehicle and 3 launchers. SA-11 batteries had 3 launchers, two of which with their own tracking radar.

* 2 SAM Brigades per front (army group): each with 9-16 SA-12 batteries. SA-12 batteries had 6-9 launchers.

 

Additional MANPADS are organic to units on many levels for self protection. For example:

* 3 MANPADS for most HQs

* 3 MANPDAS in the technical batteries in SAM units

* 3 MANPADS per firing battery in all SAM units

* 6 MANPDAS per artillery/MRL battery (so on average one MANPADS for every artillery piece!)

etc.


Edited by MBot
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Here is some additional data about doctrinal air defense organization for the late Soviet Union. First it is important to make a distinction between PVO and Army. The PVO were the air defense forces, responsible for the strategic air defense of the homeland. They were equipped with SA-1, SA-2, SA-3, SA-5 and SA-10. An overview about PVO assets in the Caucasus was already provided previously in the thread. The Army had its own tactical air defense for its own protection, equipped with various SHORAD, SA-4, SA-6, SA-8, SA-11, SA-12 and SA-15.

 

Army air defense doctrinal organization:

* 1 SAM Platoon per motor-rifle battalion: 9 MANPADS

* 1 Air Defense Battalion per motor-rifle/tank regiment: 6 2S6 Tunguska and 6 SA-13 and 18 MANPADS *OR*

* 1 Air Defense Battery per motor-rifle/tank regiment: 4 ZSU-23-4 Shilka and 4 SA-9/13

* 1 SAM Regiment per motor-rifle/tank division: 5 SA-6/8 batteries OR 4 SA-15 batteries. SA-6 was often found in tank divisions, SA-8 often in motor-rifle divisions. SA-15 replaced both. SA-6 batteries had one radar vehicle and 4 launchers. SA-8 batteries had 4 launchers with their own radar.

* 1 SAM Brigade per army: 9 SA-4 batteries OR 12 SA-11 batteries. SA-4 batteries had one tracking radar vehicle and 3 launchers. SA-11 batteries had 3 launchers, two of which with their own tracking radar.

* 2 SAM Brigades per front (army group): each with 9-16 SA-12 batteries. SA-12 batteries had 6-9 launchers.

 

Additional MANPADS are organic to units on many levels for self protection. For example:

* 3 MANPADS for most HQs

* 3 MANPDAS in the technical batteries in SAM units

* 3 MANPADS per firing battery in all SAM units

* 6 MANPDAS per artillery/MRL battery (so on average one MANPADS for every artillery piece!)

etc.

Very interesting, thank you for your answer. I was not aware that systems operated would be different between PVO and Army. It explains why there are so many systems with the same time frame and analog performances.

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Also realize with the army during a shooting conflict, they'd have to take into account the ranges of enemy artillery. Sure, you could put the SA-10/12 near the front, but if five Paladins know where it is and it's within range, it's toast.

 

One of the reasons the systems are so mobile.

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  • 4 months later...

hello, i got a quick question:

 

in reality, what would be the maximum distance between a HAWK launcher unit and its targeting radar?

would it be realistic to have some launchers 20 oder 30nm away from the tracking radar?

thanks!

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