1 Su-27 vs 2 F-15 BVR

[Bushmanni]

@Sweep and @Bushmanni:

 

What you are both saying makes sense, see if I understand this right: if you ignore the computer launch cues and fire according to your own DLZ in your head to maximize PK, you will fire the ER at a greater range then the AIM-120, despite the computer cue for the ER are at shorter range than the one for the AIM-120?

 

I don't know if I'm hijacking this thread, but I guess this issue is very relevant to the OP's question...

 

Yep. But ER has range advantage only at higher altitudes. At lower altitudes you would fire when the Eagle doesn't see you and you are close enough so that the Eagle doesn't have time to fire back when you launch.

[Cik]

highalt is pointless honestly. ER range is "technically" superior on paper but in actuality it's worthless.

 

unless you can fire a radar missile and hit within about 3-5 seconds don't bother firing; all it will do is scare the prey and they will chaff it 100% of the time.

 

load as many non-radars as possible; don't bother flying at high altitude, none of your missiles are reliable enough to hit anything past very close range. radar missiles are only really useful as a option for close range combat; they are less spoofable than your ET/R73 at close range because they close the distance very fast and because chopping throttle does not affect them.

 

highalt is pointless; your only strength is stealth, VSCAN and EO. all highalt will do is waste your time until you're forced to disengage by the superior de facto F/E pole of f-15.

 

jammers don't achieve anything due to very low effective ranges of all missiles. don't bother loading them; take more archers instead.

 

don't expect to get kills off anything other than ambush. if it all possible, don't emit until the enemy has already blown up.

 

shoot lots of missiles. seriously, underestimating what 2 chaff packets can do is a deadly mistake. KEEP SHOOTING!

 

don't attack something unless it isn't aware of you or you have it outnumbered at least 2:1

 

don't be afraid to fire missiles and burn lots of fuel. you are significantly heavier than eagles because they will jettison their fuel tanks in close combat and you cannot. in actuality, being below 60% fuel before going into close combat is a good idea.

 

this assumes of course eagles have SPAAMRAAM. if they are loaded with sparrows going high (~12,000m) or so is actually worth it. many eagles are extremely silly and fly around on the deck all the time because they are used to the inherent superiority of the AMRAAM and have no idea how to actually use a BVR platform like the eagle. you can get R-27R kills on these people by just shoot - crank - nose on - shoot - crank -repeat. mix in some T/ET and they will often lose.

[FLANKERATOR]

Never run from a challenge! Die Trying ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qrepe-js0DI

 

Wicked :thumbup:

[Falcon_S]

J...

 

I seem to win 1v1's all the time in the same scenario and can kill the bandit in max 3 missiles but seems much more difficult when outnumbered.

 

Any advice?

 

Training, training, training...

 

[Boris]

Shooting down the AI is one thing, much easier than going against a co-ordinated 2 ship of human players.

 

[DarkFire]

jammers don't achieve anything due to very low effective ranges of all missiles. don't bother loading them; take more archers instead.

 

That's true as far as their effectiveness against A-A missiles is concerned, but the Sorbtsiya pods do have other uses: they reduce the lock range of SAMs and can be used tactically to help set up an engagement because jamming masks your altitude until the enemy radar achieves burn-through.

[Cik]

altitude doesn't mean that much because kinetic advantage in DCS is mostly meaningless if you are not an eagle.

 

the weakest point by far of any of your weapons is the seeking. you could be going mach 10 and you would still miss at anything past very close range.

 

archers simply aren't reliable enough to only take 2. they are the sukhoi's best advantage, and since you will often be ambushing groups it is imperative to bring enough to kill at least two semi-defensive targets.

[Frostie]

I've sneaked upon and killed plenty of F-15 foes thanks to ECM, here you won't need extra archers. But extra archers are great also, there is no defintive way to fight Eagles, just be thankful for options.

[Sweep]

(...)just be thankful for options.

 

+1

 

Also gives the "other guy" a bit to think about and plan for, as well!

[Cik]

you snuck up on someone by running electronic noise that can be detected from 200nm?

 

high altitude almost works against you in sukhoi, since the effective range of the AMRAAM increases and the effective range of your missiles does not, because as long as the enemy can make a halfhearted turn and chaff twice it will spoof every radar you have.

 

sparrow armed eagles are of course another story, but if you snuck up on someone with sorbitsya you probably could have done it without it. i mean, no one expects the high flanker, partially because it's a terrible idea and because in airquake DCS everyone flies around on the deck because BVR is so twisted.

 

i'm not saying victory is impossible by the way, but actually trading spears successfully with an eagle requires every advantage in the book and your chance of actually killing it are very low.

 

to kill an eagle:

really high, really fast

RNGesus on chaff/flare chances

he's not very good, and/or doesn't go full defensive early enough (as in like, what, 5 miles? lul)

he has no friends, or you outnumber those friends 3 or 4 to 1 (and even then you're likely to catch an AMRAAM to the face from a bunch of cheapshot eagles anyway)

 

BVR is a fool's game unless you are okay with getting a kill every 20 sorties, maybe

the worst part about going high is that you can't effectively use your IRST because it doesn't gimbal low enough.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Cik

[Frostie]

you snuck up on someone by running electronic noise that can be detected from 200nm?

 

high altitude almost works against you in sukhoi, since the effective range of the AMRAAM increases and the effective range of your missiles does not, because as long as the enemy can make a halfhearted turn and chaff twice it will spoof every radar you have.

 

sparrow armed eagles are of course another story, but if you snuck up on someone with sorbitsya you probably could have done it without it. i mean, no one expects the high flanker, partially because it's a terrible idea and because in airquake DCS everyone flies around on the deck because BVR is so twisted.

 

i'm not saying victory is impossible by the way, but actually trading spears successfully with an eagle requires every advantage in the book and your chance of actually killing it are very low.

 

to kill an eagle:

really high, really fast

RNGesus on chaff/flare chances

he's not very good, and/or doesn't go full defensive early enough (as in like, what, 5 miles? lul)

he has no friends, or you outnumber those friends 3 or 4 to 1 (and even then you're likely to catch an AMRAAM to the face from a bunch of cheapshot eagles anyway)

 

BVR is a fool's game unless you are okay with getting a kill every 20 sorties, maybe

the worst part about going high is that you can't effectively use your IRST because it doesn't gimbal low enough.

 

If you ever see a high bandit then that is the biggest threat but also the most juiciest because it is tougher for them to defend. So if you're high in a Flanker with no ECM you might as well ask for some AMRAAM attention.

 

The difference between hiding up high and hiding down low is you can escape from high where as an F-15 will chase you down with ease when you're trying to hide down low.

 

Most of the best Eagle pilots tend to use altitude, this is to benefit their aircraft performance and missiles as well as utilise their SA tools, Radar and TEWS. You won't find these guys while you sneak in the valleys but you can guarantee they'll find you.

 

 

You can BVR against Eagles and make 30km kill shots, it requires knowing how to defeat low energy AMRAAMS and keeping energy high. But in 1v1 it is more of a fight to the death for the Flanker while the Eagle has a reset option. I've flown plenty of 2v2s and the Eagles do dominate but it's possible to make it work when all the stars align, no mistakes. Unfortunately BVR in the F-15 is a lot more forgiving.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Frostie

[Cik]

ECM doesn't help because it doesn't suppress their range at all.

 

even at high altitude, the realistic hit range of an AMRAAM is still far less than the burnthrough of the same aircraft. all jammers do is make you easier to see at long range, in combat they are basically worthless as all they do is help the enemy see you.

 

it has marginal utility in a few other games, because the theoretical ROPT/RPI values sometimes lie outside burnthrough, if both combatants are high and fast. at that point, the enemy does actually lose the ability to shoot you directly because of the ECM. this never happens in DCS because missiles have tiny effective ranges.

 

realistically ECM is a liability if you can't actually suppress the enemy's shot. in the modern age especially because HOJ exists.

 

i'm not saying it's useless, just not against eagles. against mig21-era i'm sure it's probably sort of useful. not that you need it then either.

[Bushmanni]

Jammer is mostly useless in 1vs1 but in a big pvp server fight it can create confusion that can help someone to slip through or at least slow down targeting or in a best case even deny a lock on a burn through target if the jammer and target are aligned just right (as the radar prefers to lock the jammer instead of the target).

 

You can have a pretty good estimate of the jamming target altitude in F-15 by locking the jammer and looking where the TD box is in the HUD. You can also get range from the RWR if the target has his radar on. But doing this sensor fusion in your head takes time and is away from lookign for other bandits and AOJ mode is like STT in that radar stares at the target instead of scanning. While jammer isn't perfect way to hide it will create extra workload on the enemy. If you can make him busy enough he will start having gaps in SA.

[winchesterdelta1]

ECM is pretty handy to mask yourself especially in a crowded environment. Lots of people tent to concentrate on the solid targets. So you can bring confusion with it. Also i use ECM to break long range TWS shots and deny them that shot. If i'm flying high and know i'm up against F-15's i turn on my ECM at around 28 miles. Just before burn trough my ECM will be active.. Then i turn it back off to break lock. By doing it this way i force the other platform to use STT. Or to completely loose me on radar for a while. Cause most of the time they can't find me back right away and saves me some seconds. So ECM can be very useful when used smart.

 

So i use ECM to save seconds, confuse them and force them to perform more actions on me to engage me properly. Mostly i do this against excellent human opponents cause with them i really need those extra seconds and their momentary decrease of their SA.

Edited January 4, 2017 by winchesterdelta1

[Falcon_S]

...Also i use ECM to break long range TWS shots and deny them that shot...

 

Also i use ECM only for that and ECM is OFF in around 40km from bandit. After that with maneuvering interrupt possible (always expect it) TWS and STT lock.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Falcon_S

[Mamba]

the worst part about going high is that you can't effectively use your IRST because it doesn't gimbal low enough.

 

Usually at the point where the range to target is too close for the eos to look below the nose you can switch to vertical scan and invert the jet. A bonus is that players are usually far less wary of ETs falling from above when they are dirt diving than when they're astronauts.

[TAW_Blaze]

If you ever see a high bandit then that is the biggest threat but also the most juiciest because it is tougher for them to defend. So if you're high in a Flanker with no ECM you might as well ask for some AMRAAM attention.

 

The difference between hiding up high and hiding down low is you can escape from high where as an F-15 will chase you down with ease when you're trying to hide down low.

 

Most of the best Eagle pilots tend to use altitude, this is to benefit their aircraft performance and missiles as well as utilise their SA tools, Radar and TEWS. You won't find these guys while you sneak in the valleys but you can guarantee they'll find you.

 

 

You can BVR against Eagles and make 30km kill shots, it requires knowing how to defeat low energy AMRAAMS and keeping energy high. But in 1v1 it is more of a fight to the death for the Flanker while the Eagle has a reset option. I've flown plenty of 2v2s and the Eagles do dominate but it's possible to make it work when all the stars align, no mistakes. Unfortunately BVR in the F-15 is a lot more forgiving.

 

Occasionally you do have to fight a guy called Frostie who makes you think he is flying under the mountains. :megalol: