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Spitfire first take-off; first "landing" observations


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Mapping brakes to a button? What a strange idea.

On my bicycle I use a stick for braking: if I drive too fast I just put it into the spokes. That simple.

 

yeah indeed a strange idea :)

but i tend to map my controls as close as possible to the real counterparts...meaning, in that case, that i dont want the brakes mapped to my toebrakes on my rudder pedals, cause the spit is working different.

so, as i only have a ffb2 with little buttons, and no fancy lever on the grip, i mapped a button on my ch-throttle. that wasnt working good though. so i ended up mapping it to the mini-stick on the throttle. works like a charm.

 

putting a stick into the spokes works probably as good as the button i was using ;)

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I put the brakes to the Toes of my pedal (both axes). This works sufferable as the curves are tuned wise. I'm still on it...

It took me several crashes until I realised, that brakes work differential in relation to the rudder. The manual keeps this secret.

Though I know this it's still heavy to taxi without leaving the taxi way. It's not easy to give the brakes the right rate without the sensation of acceleration or deceleration (ass-meter).

 

Yesterday I found out, best taxi behavior is with a flat rear tyre :)

I performed a near-headstand (cause of heavy braking) and as the plane's rear fall back to the concrete, jumped a few times, the tyre was flat and the tail-wheels' support bearing was fixed.

 

The ground chief ranted ... but now it was very easy to taxi straight ahead :)


Edited by Tekkx

Manual for my version of RS485-Hardware, contact: tekkx@dresi.de

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I put the brakes to the Toes of my pedal (both axes). This works sufferable as the curves are tuned wise. I'm still on it...

It took me several crashes until I realised, that brakes work differential in relation to the rudder. The manual keeps this secret.

Well, on my rudder, I dislike having brakes axis on the pedal when on top of it I have to use rudder for turning, the pedal when braking is to "flat" and the foot is prone to slide out of it.

I really prefer having the brake axis on the hands, so I use one of the rotary under the thumbs on my X-55 throttle. You may want to try that, I find it far more precise than everything on the feet.

Whisper of old OFP & C6 forums, now Kalbuth.

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...I use one of the rotary under the thumbs on my X-55 throttle. You may want to try that...

That's a valuable idea.

Only problem: Rotary aren't self resetting.

Will definitely try that. Before, I have to swap Throttle and RPM axes. Throttle is now on left lever and well used while taxi. So I can't reach any of the rotarys.

Manual for my version of RS485-Hardware, contact: tekkx@dresi.de

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I put the brakes to the Toes of my pedal (both axes). This works sufferable as the curves are tuned wise. I'm still on it...

 

Curious how did you do this? ( if I am understanding correctly).

I seem to be able to only assign toe brake axis to one pedal.

Don B

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It took me a moment to dig this out: Use (in Control Settings)

(out of my brain - I'm not in the Cockpit - pretending to work - so sth is maybe some incorrect)

 

- Axis Commands

- highlight Wheelbrakes (column of the referring controller)

- Click ADD

- move desired controller's axis from one edge to the other :joystick:

 

Bling! New axis is added there where the other axe already has been :) (separated by semicolon)

 

- Tune axis as you need - you have to tune both axes separate. I set one axis to my thoughts and copied values to the other.

I think, I'll never find a suitable curve. I set it as Slider with a some flattened behavior for soft response. Not too flat and even (maybe) no deadzone.

And I stuck the pedal on the floor with double-sided adhesive tape (If I have to move someday, I have to take the deal boards with me)

 

The renter: Hey! What about my deal boards?

I: Keep calm, man. I flew a Spitfire right here. You're lucky, that anything else is still OK with this house.

 

Right now (I am at work again) I had a flash: I'll add the "trick" with the Rotary to the brakes, so I can use it as a parking brake AND can test if I can improve my taxi-skills with that. Jeeeeh Ha!


Edited by Tekkx

Manual for my version of RS485-Hardware, contact: tekkx@dresi.de

Please do not PM me with DCS-BIOS-related questions. If the answer might also be useful to someone else, it belongs in a public thread where it can be discovered by everyone using the search function. Thank You.

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It took me a moment to dig this out: Use (in Control Settings)

(out of my brain - I'm not in the Cockpit - pretending to work - so sth is maybe some incorrect)

 

- Axis Commands

- highlight Wheelbrakes (column of the referring controller)

- Click ADD

- move desired controller's axis from one edge to the other :joystick:

 

Bling! New axis is added there where the other axe already has been :) (separated by semicolon)

 

:thumbup:

Alright I got it now, thanks so much! I don't think I ever would have figured that one out.

I actually had to manually add the y axis for my Crosswinds toe brakes, by clicking on the drop down box and selecting the y - just moving it did not seem to work to get it to recognize like it did for my x axis on the toe-brakes.

 

I have never set the axis as a slider, do you find it better than just a regular axis? I have been running mine as just a normal axis with 0 curvature and 100% saturation.


Edited by dburne

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

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...

I have never set the axis as a slider, do you find it better than just a regular axis?...

I havn't check out if there is a difference, but it seemed consequential to me. While Rudder, Ails and Elevator are moving from Zero to both sides, brakes have just one direction. And: If you set a curve, "no slider" gives a strange behavior to a "One-Direction-Axe".

 

Meanwhile I checked out the triple-set of axes to the brakes: Using a good reachable (by thumb) rotary for the brakes - in combination with toes - makes taxi quiet "easy".

 

I know, it's a kind of cheat. But the only way (for me) to reach the runway in one piece :)

 

Now, on the RWY, the next problem occured: Take Off.

Well-behaved - as I am - I pull the Elevators full back and ... (very busy with keeping the Spitty straight on the line) ... release them too late.

This causes a lift off prior to enough speed. Outcome is clear to everyone: The plane is completely uncontrollable. Best result is a belly with a surviving pilot.

 

So I ask myself: How did those brave men train this. There is no place for a trainer. How much planes have they wrecked before they became a serious fighter pilot...


Edited by Tekkx
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Manual for my version of RS485-Hardware, contact: tekkx@dresi.de

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I havn't check out if there is a difference, but it seemed consequential to me. While Rudder, Ails and Elevator are moving from Zero to both sides, brakes have just one direction. And: If you set a curve, "no slider" gives a strange behavior to a "One-Direction-Axe".

 

Ok thanks, I will try them out set as a slider for my next flight and see how it feels.

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Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

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Well, after many frustrating evenings of ever closer analysis I am pleased to say that I have finally joined that group of people who are able to takeoff regularly, in a straight line, with zero assist. Yahoo!

 

Few more evenings of takeoff yet, then takeoffs from ramp start (been starting from lined up on runway to get to this stage)

 

Might be onto circuits and landings before end of Jan! LOL.

 

And I bought the Spitfire on the day it released, it has taken me that long! But in my defence I have been flying Falcon F16 for the last 17 years so this switch to warbirds takes some getting used to.

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I never have any trouble scraping a wing in my Spifire.

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Holbeach..... Lol!

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I never have any trouble scraping a wing in my Spifire.

 

lol, great picture:thumbup:


Edited by TwilightZone

P-51, 190-D9, 109-K4, Spitfire MK IX, Normandy, and everything else:joystick:

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I got an Oculus Rift yesterday, I must say flying with it has certainly improved my landings now.

And wow, that Spit is simply gorgeous in the Rift. ED really did a great job on this one.

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

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This is an outcome of my second try without any assistance.

How many Tail-Wheels do you count? (It's not a Photoshop-Trick!)

1183471478_2017CrashSpit.thumb.jpg.2df4ea526ba447a4350083d259f32afa.jpg


Edited by Tekkx

Manual for my version of RS485-Hardware, contact: tekkx@dresi.de

Please do not PM me with DCS-BIOS-related questions. If the answer might also be useful to someone else, it belongs in a public thread where it can be discovered by everyone using the search function. Thank You.

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No wonder you struggled, must have been like trying to steer a shopping trolley lol


Edited by crowebar

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I have just downloaded the Spitfire and trying to take off and land...... Very tricky. After several crashes I have managed to take off regularly without crashing. The trick for me is to set elevator trim to zero, full right rudder trim and keep the stick in NEUTRAL position. As the aircraft accelerates be all over the rudder trying to keep her straight. Failing to do so usually results in a ground loop. When the tail wants to lift up counter the torque effect with right aileron and gently pull on the stick. Landing is a different story, still practicing.....:lol:

 

I set my pitch curvature to 60, saturation both 100. Less curvature is too sensitive for me. I have a Thrustmaster Hotas.

 

Still not happy with my joystick settings. Does anyone have tips for my setup?

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...

I set my pitch curvature to 60, saturation both 100. Less curvature is too sensitive for me. I have a Thrustmaster Hotas.

Still not happy with my joystick settings. Does anyone have tips for my setup?

In the end it's a question of personal taste.

Also will the use of an extension (or not) makes a difference.

 

From my experiences (even there aren't very much) can I tell you, my curve's settings became steeper the more practice I've got. Also caused this the decrease of required deadzones.

From my point of view it's always better if the curves are determined inside your Head-Hand-Link. Won't tell you, I got to this point (neither now nor soon) :(

 

Ask me about 20 crashes later :) (performed yesterday about ten - without any felt progress)

 

BTW: My incompetence in performing a clean (unassisted) take off payed in considerable skills in taxiing. I start my training consequentially CaD from the park position. (Though I'm close to take the bate each time I find me supine)


Edited by Tekkx

Manual for my version of RS485-Hardware, contact: tekkx@dresi.de

Please do not PM me with DCS-BIOS-related questions. If the answer might also be useful to someone else, it belongs in a public thread where it can be discovered by everyone using the search function. Thank You.

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I have just downloaded the Spitfire and trying to take off and land...... Very tricky. After several crashes I have managed to take off regularly without crashing. The trick for me is to set elevator trim to zero, full right rudder trim and keep the stick in NEUTRAL position. As the aircraft accelerates be all over the rudder trying to keep her straight. Failing to do so usually results in a ground loop. When the tail wants to lift up counter the torque effect with right aileron and gently pull on the stick. Landing is a different story, still practicing.....:lol:

 

I set my pitch curvature to 60, saturation both 100. Less curvature is too sensitive for me. I have a Thrustmaster Hotas.

Still not happy with my joystick settings. Does anyone have tips for my setup?

 

I went through these same pains with the Bf-109 and FW-190 using the TM Warthog HOTAS, and I went away from curvatures as well as from take-off assistance and auto-rudder. But even with a lot of practice, it was always challenging. The TM WH stick is just too stiff especially going anywhere from the center position. Meanwhile I own the Gladiator Pro joystick from VKB, and that's made it a piece of cake to TO and land these birds. And when I started with the Spit, without even looking into the flight manual, my first take-off went very well. Landing is a bit more challenging as you cannot lock the Spit's tailwheel. With the TM stick it would have taken me a long time to manage take-off and landing of the Spit. Curvatures are not really a solution as they make the controls over-sensitive at larger deflections, and that's bad when you are fighting and need precision.

I find the TM stick ok when I fly the A-10C; but I will never again use it with WW II aircraft.

Buying another stick at EUR 306 incl. VAT is not an easy decision but I don't regret it - it's a lot more fun, a lot easier to control your aircraft with precision.


Edited by LeCuvier

LeCuvier

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I have finally cracked the takeoffs. The uereka moment was in realising that I could use the Rate of Turn indicator to keep the aircraft running straight. Many people have mentioned the rudder dance, and not to be too hard with the rudder but how do you know how much 'dance' is required? You need to keep the aircraft straight and can use the bottom needle of the Turn & Slip indicator to do that. On your takeoff run don't look out of the cockpit but rather watch the Rate of Turn Indicator. Dance on your rudder to aim to keep this 'Rate of Turn Indicator' between Left 2 and Right 2. You will soon then get a feel for the amount of rudder required to keep her straight. When the speed reaches 90 MPH look up & pull up and away you go! Also, with the pitch trimmed nose down it is possible to run up the RPM to +8 boost while still holding stationary on the brakes. I have Warthog and took all curves off except throttle which has a curve of -24. I put a deadzone of 5 on the roll axis to avoid inadvertently applying aileron during the takeoff roll.

 

1. Create a mission where you are setup on the runway, so that you are lined up.

2. Apply brakes on entering mission

3. Setup rudder trim full right

4. Elevator trim 1/2 nose down.

5. Action rudder pedals to ensure both brakes applied as sometimes they are deflected.

6. Pull stick full back otherwise nose will tip forward on rev up.

7. Eyes in cockpit at instruments - don't look outside during initial stage of takeoff

8. Increase RPM to boost +8

9. Eyes now on the Rate of Turn Indicator at the bottom of the 'Turn & Slip indicator'

10. Release the brakes and apply immediate right rudder but watch not to exceed R2 on indicator

11. Centre stick, and dance on rudder pedals to keep rate of turn indicator arrow between L2 and R2. Be ready to apply a little aileron if she starts to dip a wing.

12. At 90 mph ish increase RPM and pull up, level off etc as per manual. Also worth centering rudder trim here so its worth noting how many seconds to apply trim so that you can take it off roughly without looking down.

 

Next step is to achieve the same from a ramp start & taxi onto runway but I don't see this as being a major issue with the keeping straight on the takeoff run now cracked.


Edited by crowebar

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Glad you found a solution crowebar. You may like to know that the 'bank indicator' needle is actually called the 'rate of turn' indicator and does just that, it gives an indication of the rate the a/c is turning in the air. But it is useful as you describe.

 

Personally I prefer to watch the nose against the sky/clouds for directional input so that my head is 'out of the office' but you are correct about the +/- 2 deflection (on landing I'm kicking much harder at times). I've also found that about 20% right rudder trim is enough - the word "rudder" on the trim wheel is at about 1 o'clock from the top position. But whatever floats your boat......

klem

56 RAF 'Firebirds'

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Hi Klem, thanks for the heads up on correct name. Original post updated.

I think what I describe is hopefully useful to anybody new to the Spitfire and should help anybody trying to get the thing going in a straight line without swerving around and dipping wings. I would like to think that as my feet become more familiar with the rudder dance and my takeoffs continue to improve I would be moving my concentration away from the rate of turn needle to other things, including looking outside.


Edited by crowebar

ASUS Maximus X Hero; i7-8700K OC'd @ 5 Ghz; Zotac GeForce GTX 1080 AMP Extreme 8GB; 32GB G.Skill Trident Z DDR4 3200Mhz RAM; 500GB Samsung EVO 960 SSD; Warthog HOTAS; Saitek Pro Flight Rudder pedals; HP Reverb VR; Realtus Forcefeel Game Pad running on SimShaker for Aviators software. :thumbup:

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I've also found that about 20% right rudder trim is enough - the word "rudder" on the trim wheel is at about 1 o'clock from the top position. But whatever floats your boat......

 

That is about where I have settled on for takeoffs as well, seems to work better for me. I am please with my takeoffs now, however still need some work on my landings - mainly on the roll out keeping a wing from dipping to the runway.

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

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I think what I describe is hopefully useful to anybody new to the Spitfire and should help anybody trying to get the thing going in a straight line without swerving around and dipping wings.

 

Right. And it'll be useful if you have to operate at "Zero Sight" conditions some day and completed some lessons in "reading instruments" before.

Remember the story as Mr. Link sold some of his "Blue Boxes" after he proved unintentionally his skills in IFR to the US Airforce. :)

 

I will follow your proposal. :) ... If I get some "stick time" next days...


Edited by Tekkx

Manual for my version of RS485-Hardware, contact: tekkx@dresi.de

Please do not PM me with DCS-BIOS-related questions. If the answer might also be useful to someone else, it belongs in a public thread where it can be discovered by everyone using the search function. Thank You.

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That is about where I have settled on for takeoffs as well, seems to work better for me. I am please with my takeoffs now, however still need some work on my landings - mainly on the roll out keeping a wing from dipping to the runway.

 

The trick that made it for my landings : Pressure of 4 on wheel brakes before the touchdown and all along the landing run. Fly parallel to runway low speed until the 60mph speed comes in and makes you touchdown on your own. Drop throttle back altogether, pull stick, if you have enough free hands left, flaps in :)

Whisper of old OFP & C6 forums, now Kalbuth.

Specs : i7 6700K / MSI 1070 / 32G RAM / SSD / Rift S / Virpil MongooseT50 / Virpil T50 CM2 Throttle / MFG Crosswind.

All but Viggen, Yak52 & F16

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