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Rudder and takeoff


Zimmerdylan
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When I first got into the Spitfire and took off, it was a little tricky but thanks to the German planes, I was able to get it off the ground well enough and as I kept doing it, it became easier an easier.

So I moved on to actually flying it around. That too is pretty sweet. I dropped into a server where they had some AI 109's flying around and I began to duke it out with one of them. This is where I started to adjust the curve on my controls. The heavy maneuvering is where this really counts in my book. So I got one of them in my sights and really had trouble getting the plane to line up on it due to the very sensitive nature of the rudder pedals. I adjusted it up to (eventually) round 20% curve and it was within a tolerable range for me to line the site up OK. It was still a little sensitive but I figured I would adjust to it. I believe that in the end I settled around 13 or 14%.

My problem came when I tried to take off again. I forgot I had put that curve on the rudder and every time the plane started rolling down the runway, I would be forced to overcompensate my rudder, or brakes due to the fact that the curve had changed so much. I was not aware of this as I had not put 2 and 2 together at this point. I was getting increasingly frustrated as I tried everything from just tapping the brakes to holding the rudder slightly:(. It was just impossible to get a good takeoff. As I realized that I had adjusted the rudder, I went back and brought it back down to 0 again and voila, instant takeoff with no issues. But when I get into the air, the rudder was just way too much for any kind of accurate flying. So I have been messing with this ever since, trying to find a usable curve that allows me the needed sensitivity for takeoff, but also the needed softening for precision aiming. I just cannot seem to find the meeting place for this. In the German planes it is obviously not an issue as brakes and rudder are separate.

I have looked and there is no other way to adjust any of this out. So my question is: How did the Devs work around this. What did they set their axis tuning to? Or, what do any of you who are currently flying do to help your takeoffs and keep your rudder usable for accuracy? I am currently at 99% success at takeoff because I have my curves where they work best. But it's really too sensitive for using the rudder effectively in combat flight.

Anyone else?

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Would you mind sharing the solution?

 

90 something views and no one offered anything up. I thought that everyone had already figured this out and I was not seeing the obvious. I figured that all of you were waiting for me to see this while having a little chuckle.

 

 

What I did was assign my rudder and elevator trims to the upper and lower dials on my X52 HOTAS. I set the curve on both of them to around 10% so that they weren't so jerky when I adjusted them. I then set the curve on my rudder pedal at around 10% so that it was effective for takeoff and was still pretty sensitive for flying but not as jerky. So when I'm doing evasive or aggressive turning, the rudder can be used without too much of a problem. When I'm zeroing in on a target that's in front of me, I can use the rudder trim much easier and I can subtly bring my nose on to my target with little problem.

I have to say that the Spitfire is the most natural WWII aircraft I have felt in DCS (or any sim for that matter). It's 1st, next to the 109, and then the Dora, and hopefully the P51 will get the same kind of feel with the upcoming upgrade. I think that even with it's limitations, the P51 would be much more formidable if it just had the same feel that the spitfire has.

 

 

I hope that if any of you are having takeoff issues and aiming issues, this helps a little. I have seen lots of people having issues with rudder related functions.


Edited by Zimmerdylan
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Would you mind sharing the solution?

 

Create Mission, invisibilty on with engine started on rwy. Practice over and over again.

 

As for technique....1 degree down trim, and "rudder" on rudder trim at 2 oclock position. Stick full aft and full right and slight right rudder prior to starting takeoff. Slowly add to 8 boost and pick a refernce on horizon or a cloud in the sky ahead. As soon as you see your nose drifting you must correct smoothly immediatly. As she accelerates keep the back stick, but begin to neutralize out the right stick, your flying this thing to lift off essentially. Once you have full aft stick and your ailerons are neutralized(never fully in center, seems like small left and right inputs to prevent wing from dragging.) slowly release aft stick and she should fly off.

on

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The best curve to adjust is your learning curve. Once you have that fine tuned (in other words, just keep practicing) you'l find things get much smoother.

 

There is no magic shortcut for the skills required to master tail draggers.

 

 

It's very true that time and repetition are the key to these planes. Once you get the hang of one of them, the next one becomes easier because you kind of know what to expect. I remember hating, and complaining about the 109 for weeks. I just could not get that plane to leave the ground without serious trouble. But you develop muscle memory and retain the procedure in your head and it starts to come together. If I had not learned to fly the German planes, I would be cursing DCS right now because I would be in the "I can't get this thing off the ground" boat with the Spitfire.

Although the FM in DCS is second to none. I find that ground handling in all sims is shaky at best. This includes takeoff and landing. For some reason it seems to be the area where all sims are the weakest and because of this it results in less than ideal conditions for taking off and landing. It's just something that's part of simming.

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It's very true that time and repetition are the key to these planes. Once you get the hang of one of them, the next one becomes easier because you kind of know what to expect. I remember hating, and complaining about the 109 for weeks. I just could not get that plane to leave the ground without serious trouble. But you develop muscle memory and retain the procedure in your head and it starts to come together. If I had not learned to fly the German planes, I would be cursing DCS right now because I would be in the "I can't get this thing off the ground" boat with the Spitfire.

Although the FM in DCS is second to none. I find that ground handling in all sims is shaky at best. This includes takeoff and landing. For some reason it seems to be the area where all sims are the weakest and because of this it results in less than ideal conditions for taking off and landing. It's just something that's part of simming.

 

For me it's the 190 which is untamable at take-off..... 109 or Spit seem rather fine. To each his own :) But you're right, learning the 109 makes it far easier for the Spitfire now. At least, it makes me accept my multiple crashes far more easily :)

As for ground handling being a weak sim point... I'd refer to tail dragging post where it's stated that DCS (and BOS) seem to have nailed it.

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Yeah I found there is a lot of lag in the rudder controls of the Spitfire on the ground. You make an input on the rudders but the effect isn't felt until a bit later. This is true of all the WWII planes, but I found it much more pronounced on the Spit. It means it's very easy to over-control it and get into oscillations.

 

It's okay once you get used to it though, you learn to apply the rudder input ... stop, re-center ... wait for the effect and then maybe apply a correction. If you keep applying the rudder until you see the effect, you'll likely have applied too much and it'll go veering off somewhere.

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  • 7 months later...
When I first got into the Spitfire and took off, it was a little tricky but thanks to the German planes, I was able to get it off the ground well enough and as I kept doing it, it became easier an easier.

So I moved on to actually flying it around. That too is pretty sweet. I dropped into a server where they had some AI 109's flying around and I began to duke it out with one of them. This is where I started to adjust the curve on my controls. The heavy maneuvering is where this really counts in my book. So I got one of them in my sights and really had trouble getting the plane to line up on it due to the very sensitive nature of the rudder pedals. I adjusted it up to (eventually) round 20% curve and it was within a tolerable range for me to line the site up OK. It was still a little sensitive but I figured I would adjust to it. I believe that in the end I settled around 13 or 14%.

My problem came when I tried to take off again. I forgot I had put that curve on the rudder and every time the plane started rolling down the runway, I would be forced to overcompensate my rudder, or brakes due to the fact that the curve had changed so much. I was not aware of this as I had not put 2 and 2 together at this point. I was getting increasingly frustrated as I tried everything from just tapping the brakes to holding the rudder slightly:(. It was just impossible to get a good takeoff. As I realized that I had adjusted the rudder, I went back and brought it back down to 0 again and voila, instant takeoff with no issues. But when I get into the air, the rudder was just way too much for any kind of accurate flying. So I have been messing with this ever since, trying to find a usable curve that allows me the needed sensitivity for takeoff, but also the needed softening for precision aiming. I just cannot seem to find the meeting place for this. In the German planes it is obviously not an issue as brakes and rudder are separate.

I have looked and there is no other way to adjust any of this out. So my question is: How did the Devs work around this. What did they set their axis tuning to? Or, what do any of you who are currently flying do to help your takeoffs and keep your rudder usable for accuracy? I am currently at 99% success at takeoff because I have my curves where they work best. But it's really too sensitive for using the rudder effectively in combat flight.

Anyone else?

 

Yeah me too..if it wasn't for the BF109 crazy swing experience, I didn't know what to expect. But this Spit is way too fierce and wild like a tail-swagging animal at take-offs! :( I couldn't even go past 0 Boost power and I'm swinging and flipped over. I use keybd as Rudder (Z & X keys) any solutions?? Help:cry_2: Or I couldn't even go past 2500 RPM and it swings hard left and flipped head over heals. And that means I never got off the runway on a Spit up till now.

DCS on OSX. Virtual pilot for 28 years. Love the warbirds and Cold-War era aircrafts.

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The best way is to practice taking off in the 109 with the tailwheel unlocked... Then all other aircraft will be very easy :-)

 

Of course in the Spitfire you do not have to ( actually probably shouldn't at all ... ) use differential braking during the takeoff run.

 

I bought Normandy yesterday, and was positively surprised to find out the Spitfire and the 109 are easier to taxi and takeoff from Normandy airfields. For a start, they are usually a lot wider too :-)

Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream...

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I use keybd as Rudder (Z & X keys) any solutions?? Help:cry_2:

 

Ouch! DCS level of simulation is going to make the use of any on/off device like keys to control an axis incredibly problematic; if you are able I would strongly recommend at the very least obtaining a joystick controller with a twist grip or if you can afford it separate rudder pedals. It will help considerably.

 

Otherwise, make sure that your tailwheel is straight (pointing directly aft of the aircraft) before applying takeoff power. For the first 2-3 seconds of the run keep the stick fully aft as the pressure on the tailwheel will help make it less unstable and keep it tracking straighter. Move the stick to neutral and then very slightly forward to lift the tail off the ground and so that you can just see the horizon intersecting the nose.

 

You'll have to be be dancing on those key inputs with short taps all this time with a bias to the right. Note that as the nose drops when you pick up the tail that you'll get increased swing left but as soon as the nose steadies that swing will lessen; you'll have to compensate with a brief burst of right rudder then ease during this process.

 

Good luck!


Edited by DD_Fenrir
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I found that I was over boosting. 0 to plus 8 for me and ready on the rudder :)

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Ouch! DCS level of simulation is going to make the use of any on/off device like keys to control an axis incredibly problematic; if you are able I would strongly recommend at the very least obtaining a joystick controller with a twist grip or if you can afford it separate rudder pedals. It will help considerably.

 

Otherwise, make sure that your tailwheel is straight (pointing directly aft of the aircraft) before applying takeoff power. For the first 2-3 seconds of the run keep the stick fully aft as the pressure on the tailwheel will help make it less unstable and keep it tracking straighter. Move the stick to neutral and then very slightly forward to lift the tail off the ground and so that you can just see the horizon intersecting the nose.

 

You'll have to be be dancing on those key inputs with short taps all this time with a bias to the right. Note that as the nose drops when you pick up the tail that you'll get increased swing left but as soon as the nose steadies that swing will lessen; you'll have to compensate with a brief burst of right rudder then ease during this process.

 

Good luck!

 

Haha..yeah. Practice! Practice....and I think I need a new joystick as well :v:

DCS on OSX. Virtual pilot for 28 years. Love the warbirds and Cold-War era aircrafts.

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Yeah I found there is a lot of lag in the rudder controls of the Spitfire on the ground. You make an input on the rudders but the effect isn't felt until a bit later. This is true of all the WWII planes, but I found it much more pronounced on the Spit. It means it's very easy to over-control it and get into oscillations.

 

It's okay once you get used to it though, you learn to apply the rudder input ... stop, re-center ... wait for the effect and then maybe apply a correction. If you keep applying the rudder until you see the effect, you'll likely have applied too much and it'll go veering off somewhere.

 

 

You've gotta 'feel' it under you...:thumbup:

DCS on OSX. Virtual pilot for 28 years. Love the warbirds and Cold-War era aircrafts.

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Anyway, I just would like to add that now that I own Normandy I can't stop flying in it. My modules, less the UH-1H, are ww2, so, Normandy is the right place to fly, but I believe I find differences in aircraft behaviour between the two versions of DCS and between the Caucasus and the Normandy maps.

 

It's easier to taxi in the Normandy airfields, but also easier to takeoff and land. This could be placebo effects caused by the amazing experience brought to me by v2 and Normandy - WOW! - but I believe it might also be due to some updates having been already poured into v2 aircraft modules as well as due to the modified terrain drag coefficients associated to the type of runways and taxiways in that Map ( ? )

Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream...

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Probably somewhere between placebo and the actual change. On one hand Yo-Yo confirmed there were no FM changes for the Spitty in 2.1.x, on the other, the dirt strips certainly have some different coeffs than the paved ones, which affects the handling.

 

I feel more confident flying these birds from Normandy bases than from Nevada ones as well.

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Probably somewhere between placebo and the actual change. On one hand Yo-Yo confirmed there were no FM changes for the Spitty in 2.1.x, on the other, the dirt strips certainly have some different coeffs than the paved ones, which affects the handling.

 

I feel more confident flying these birds from Normandy bases than from Nevada ones as well.

 

Yes, and it makes sense because in Nevada you have the additional effect of the air density due to altitude...

Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream...

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  • 4 weeks later...
The controls on the DCS Spitfire IX are way too sensitive. I know messing with the control curves can help to desensitise the controls but if Spitfires were this hard to control the UK would have been invaded by Germany. I never had these issues with A2A simulation Spitfire marks. Something is definitely not right with this module.

 

 

Well,

 

sorry but you're actually comparing apples to oranges ...

 

A2A, as much as it could do for MSFS, can't do miracles... It's all so flat and basic in MSFS land... sorry to say ...

 

I loved when I firewalled my throttle in their accusim modules and my p51d kept climbing, straight ahead, no hint of yaw / roll ... nada...

 

Watch this video and see the dancing of the floor....

 

Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream...

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The controls on the DCS Spitfire IX are way too sensitive. .

Sort of... what's missing is the instant "seat of the pants" feedback you would get if you were actually sitting in a plane. Every correction we make is lagging far behind what the airplane is doing at the time because we're only reacting to visual feedback.

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Watch this video and see the dancing of the floor....

 

 

 

 

Is it just me or what?. In that video (great footage BTW) it looks like the pilot pulls the fuel cut off lever back when the engine fires? at 50 secs in, just prior to cranking you can clearly see the lever is forward, he then grabs it and cranks the old girl up, it fires and he seems to quickly pull it back (or grab the throttle to stop it jumping the chocks :D) However just after T/O you see the lever is forward again? Maybe the lever is put into the forward position before start up and is left there?

 

 

On our IX we push it forward when she fires......I think that's a Griffon engine there, but I would have thought cockpit control sense would be similar on the different Mk's.


Edited by bart

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