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Why the 109 feels heavier than Fw190 at low speeds?


Little_D
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Hi gents,

 

why the 109 feels heavier than Fw190 at low speeds? This is the question i have. Since the last patch, the 109 changed and feels mutch more like a 109, but still i have the problem that in low speed 250 - 350 Km/H manovers the FW190 fells more lighter and more easy to control than the 109. I am not talking about knif fights with spits down low and slow, thats for Idiots and noobs. I am talking from manover like this, where you can feel the difference between 190 and 109.

 

Come in at high speed 600 - 700 Km/H on an enemy, he breaks left away and you go into a high yo-yo manover. The enemy see this and change direction to the right, so you go from a high yo-yo into a nose down spiral to close in on his six. When i reach the nose down position in the spiral at about 250 - 350 Km/H (tested in this speedrange ) the 190 is easy to control like a light plane, the 109 on this manover feels like a havy plane.

 

I know DCS is the next level in FM about other simulations like Cliffs of Dover and Battle of Moscow and i like it realy mutch, it is an challenge to learn and to master, same goes for shooting, but in now over 20 years of flightsim i never feel sutch a difference in how the 109 feels in other simulations or against the 190. In all other simulations i flow, the 109 was easyer to control at speeds between 250 and 350 Km/H than the 190, here it is the other way around.

 

I also spend the last week with finetuning on the controls and have now for me i think the best settings for both planes. I also dont fight at high throttle

in dogfight i use normaly in 109 about 1.2 ATA by 2100 rps on automatic in the 190 i use ATA 1.1 - 1.2 and 2500 rpm`s, full power and MW50 only for run or climbing away. Also i dont fly the 109 on manuel proppitch as there is no need for it, when it is moddeld correct as it looks like. Also the stallturns that SiThSpAwN postet and flown by Yo-Yo i think with the 190 are mutch easyer in 190 than in 109, also there the 109 feels havier than 190.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=128270&page=49

 

regards

 

Little_D

1./JG2_Little_D

Staffelkapitän

1./Jagdgeschwader 2 "Richthofen"

 

"Go for the leader, if you can. The path is the goal, the kill the result."

"The one who has 12, leads. The one who has six, follows."

 

YouTube Channel: 1./JG2 Filmkanal

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I haven't tried the 109 recently (will have to give it a go when I get home), but I don't necessarily find this surprising. The earlier 109s (as modelled in CloD and BoM) were much lighter. The K4 gained a lot of power over earlier 109s, and climbs and accelerates like crazy, but had about the same wing area as earlier models. I've read that the extra weight was known for not being kind on the handling, and the K4 was known for being a bit of a handful. The 190 (by contrast) was known for its well balanced handling, despite the high wing loading. None of which is saying you're wrong, something could be off ... but for me personally I'd expect the K4 to have somewhat tricky handling.


Edited by Tomsk
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The 109 gets control stiffness during a high speed dive is what i have noticed and to get out off that i have to use the rudder , is this what you mean ?


Edited by humptydumpty

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Wing Commander SWAC

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Hi gents, razor+,

 

sorry for the late answer, had to test and speek with my squadmates and other friends from other squads out of Cliffs of Dover about this. So now here is the answer :).

 

All pilots that i ask about the 109 in DCS say the following:

 

1. At speeds about 250 - 350 Km/H the controls feel like chewing gum

2. At speeds about 250 - 350 Km/H she feels like flying a Bf110 or Ju88

3. At speeds about 700 - 800 Km/H they have more control than they expected. Compare to CoD ( i know apples and pears ) but it is the only way to describe it. At speed about 700 Km/H you have hard controls in CoD with an E4, so manovering is very hard ( turn, climb, etc. ) in the K4 in DCS up to 800 Km/H she is better/easyer to control, or let it say this way, she reacts faster on control imputs at 800 Km/H than a E4 at 700 Km/H and this was

describe as the K4 feels like an old Il-2 1946 FW190A8 at 800 Km/H.

 

Al pilots i ask have more than 10 years of simflying on ww2 birds.

 

Also some real life taildragger pilots and owners of sutch a plane where saying, that the nose up behavior on right rudder imput is to much, it is there in real life but not so hard. Little imput on the right rudder in DCS let rais the nose to fast, it should be mutch more gentle. It cant be, that 5mm of right rudder imput rais the nose of the K4 so mutch, they also sai, that the nose up right rudder behavior in the 190 is mutch more realistic, compare to real life.

 

regards

 

Little_D

1./JG2_Little_D

Staffelkapitän

1./Jagdgeschwader 2 "Richthofen"

 

"Go for the leader, if you can. The path is the goal, the kill the result."

"The one who has 12, leads. The one who has six, follows."

 

YouTube Channel: 1./JG2 Filmkanal

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some real life taildragger pilots and owners of sutch a plane where saying, that the nose up behavior on right rudder imput is to much, it is there in real life but not so hard. Little imput on the right rudder in DCS let rais the nose to fast, it should be mutch more gentle. It cant be, that 5mm of right rudder imput rais the nose of the K4 so mutch

 

Gyroscopic effect is dependent not only on the magnitude of the control input, but also on the mass & RPM of the propeller. How many of these pilots you spoke to have flown an aircraft with ~2000 horsepower?

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Al pilots i ask have more than 10 years of simflying on ww2 birds.

 

Little_D

 

Is that supposed to mean something? If you have 50 years experience flying something that has no resemblance to reality, and then something different comes along, how do you decide which is right and which is wrong?

 

That's like asking a blind man to judge photo competition!

 

:helpsmilie:

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Hi Echo 38,

 

here the answer of a real life pilot:

 

Goggle translation:

 

A plane no matter whether with 80, 270, 800 or 2000 HP engine power is in travel with approximately 70 -80% Powersetting in a stable flight condition without large control inputs on the road.

For example, The side wheel moderately (of which we go in the example, as also in the game made) on the right, steered the plane to the right. As a result of the different flow conditions, the right surface is lowered while the left is lifted. Usually, it takes a few seconds until the rolling motion of the aircraft begins to roll around the longitudinal axis. The aileron can be used here to a certain extent as a replacement quiver. If the lateral impulse is only brief and the rudder is neutral again, the aircraft fuselage is aligned again in the direction of the flight. It may be a little longer around the high axis but also stabilizes due to the flag effect (side round) . The flight condition when you press the rudder is when you look at the ball in the Turn & Bank Indicator ("Turn") "unclean". An instability as with the 109 where a strong pendulum motion with moderate lateral wheel input took place, which also has a strong effect on the transverse axis is unrealistic, no matter how much horsepower the aircraft has. The only factor that affects the high horsepower is the strong torque forces acting on the aircraft, which are compensated by the rudder, when the acceleration is fast (as the commentator wrote about it).

 

german original:

 

ein Flugzeug egal ob mit 80 , 270, 800 oder 2000 PS Motorleistung ist im Reiseflug mit ca. 70 -80 % Powersetting in einem ausgetrimmten stabilen Flugzustand ohne große Steuereingaben unterwegs.

Wird nun z.B. das Seitenruder moderat (davon gehen wir bei dem Beispiel aus, wie auch im Spiel getätigt) rechts getreten, giert das Flugzeug nach rechts. Durch die unterschiedlichen Strömungsverhältnisse senkt sich dann die rechte Fläche während die Linke sich hebt. Meistens dauert es ein paar Sekunden bis außer der Rumpfdrehung des Flugzeugs die Rollbewegung um die Längsachse einsetzt. Das Seitenruder kann hier im gewissen Maßen als Ersatzquerruder eingesetzt werden. Wird so bei der Schulung als "Notprozedere" geübt Ist der Seitenruderimpuls nur kurz und das Seitenruder wird wieder neutral gestellt, richtet sich der Flugzeugrumpf wieder in Flugrichtung aus vielleicht pendelt es noch kurz etwas um die Hochachse stabiliesiert sich aber auch aufgrund des Fahneneffektes( Seitenrunder). Der Flugzustand bei Betätigen des Seitenruder ist, wenn man die Kugel im Turn& Bankindikator (Wendezeiger) ansieht "unsauber". Eine Instabilität wie bei der 109 bei der eine starke Pendelbewegung bei moderater Seitenrudereingabe stattfand, die sich auch im starken Maße auf die Querachse auswirkt ist unrealistisch, egal wieviel PS das Flugzeug hat. Der einzige Faktor bei dem sich die hohe PS Zahl auswirkt, ist beim schnellen Beschleunigen wo ( so wie der Kommentator darüber schrieb) die starken Torque Kräfte auf das Flugzeug wirken, die mit dem Seitenruder ausgeglichen werden.

 

@NeilWillis,

 

yes it has, if you fly ww2 simulations for more than 10 year, you have more expiriance as a guy that fly for 1 year. This you can also see in dogfigfhts on a server.

 

regards

 

Little_D

1./JG2_Little_D

Staffelkapitän

1./Jagdgeschwader 2 "Richthofen"

 

"Go for the leader, if you can. The path is the goal, the kill the result."

"The one who has 12, leads. The one who has six, follows."

 

YouTube Channel: 1./JG2 Filmkanal

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Dogfighting using whatever parameters happen to exist is entirely different from predicting what is correct. Sure, you may know how to handle a simulator, but so what?

 

My point is that maybe the FW-190 is too light, or it just feels different for whatever reason - like different wing loadings, or different control responses. The key is, unless you know how it ought to feel, you have no reference - and no one who has flown only simulatros has a real frame of reference as to what is or isn't right.

 

If however you know a pilot who has flown both the real items, and the simulators, then I and everyone else will be all ears.

 

I've flown simulators for over 30 years, and I haven't got a clue how the real Bf-109 K4 or FW-190 D9 fly, do you?

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Hi NeilWillis,

 

I had a long talk in Manchingen 2016 with both Bf109 red 7 pilots about how the plane feels and handle, compare to the simulation i play and what i can do there and what not. We spoke about high speed stickforces, low speed handling, take off and landing. And a lot of other stuff.

 

I think in 2018 they will be back in Manchingen at the airshow, so than i will if they dont minde recorde the interview.

 

regards

 

Little_D

1./JG2_Little_D

Staffelkapitän

1./Jagdgeschwader 2 "Richthofen"

 

"Go for the leader, if you can. The path is the goal, the kill the result."

"The one who has 12, leads. The one who has six, follows."

 

YouTube Channel: 1./JG2 Filmkanal

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Well the roll stick forces & roll speeds are now spot on to a 1944 DVL test. I don't know what the guys from the Me foundation well tell you, but unless they have altered the aileron mechanism they will likely have the same results. The K model line had different elevator gearing than the G line, so I am not completely convinced it is perfect yet.

 

I don't believe in (pilot)feelings as a basis for FMs, there are enough systematic and well documented tests around and the corresponding maths describe the envelope much less error prone than feelings.

Cougar, CH and Saitek PnP hall sensor kits + shift registers: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=220916

 

Shapeways store for DIY flight simming equipment and repair: https://www.shapeways.com/shops/rel4y-diy-joystick-flight-simming

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