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Bragging Rights: Max X-Wind Safe Landing


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Alright gents, since I rather pride myself on taildraggers in specific (sim and the real ones too!) and the art of flying them, and since this one in particular is a handful...

 

... whats the heaviest crosswind you've ever safely landed your Spit in?

 

I read conflicting data here and there, one reputable source claims that the RAF imposed a 10 knot max crosswind limit on their spits during wartime (understandable) and of course these things frequently flew from round grass fields.

 

I've gotten the 109, 190 and 51 up and down safely (e.g. the plane was undamaged and re-usable, it was not a "pretty landing" LoL) in a max of 37 knot crosswinds in DCS 1.5 and 2.0 - the Spit... I had serious issues coping with 20 knots this morning in the Spit.

 

Lets see videos and tracks... I don't have any in the Spit yet that I'm willing to share in a heavy crosswind because... ouch! LoL

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And, now we must not forget that in one of the latest patches DCS has started reporting the "base" wind as 33ft / 10 m as IRL, so, near the ground and due to different surface type drag effects we can expect it to veer and slow a bit... like IRL...

Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream...

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And, now we must not forget that in one of the latest patches DCS has started reporting the "base" wind as 33ft / 10 m as IRL, so, near the ground and due to different surface type drag effects we can expect it to veer and slow a bit... like IRL...

 

You are absolutely right, and it is indeed like IRL. That being said, the Spit lays on a new level of challenge here with the shopping cart tailwheel.

 

If you are having trouble landing a spit on a calm day, practice the following:

 

1. Relax

2. Take a shot of tequila

3. Maybe take two

4. Relax some more

5. Practice taxiing at high speed up and down the runway till you can do it straight by gently dancing with your feet

6. For a landing - Float, float float your boat, gently down to about 10 feet, aileron to place the acft left - to - right on the rwy, feet to keep the nose aligned with the rwy heading - the straighter you keep the plane on final approach, the easier it will be to keep it straight on rollout

7. Stop your descent

8. Let the plane settle and pull back gently as needed to assume 3-point attitude

9. Let it touch and dance it straight with your feet

10. F'kin relax

11. Throw aileron INTO the wind (adverse yaw)

12. Gently apply wheel braking as speed decreases (you'll feel when its time to use brakes, its when you lose rudder authority on rollout)

13. You ain't done flyin the plane till its parked with wheel chocks and the prop stops

14. Go have another shot

 

Here's my blustery day in a 190, I absolutely don't think I could ever do this in the spit though due to the tailwheel not being lockable:

 

 


Edited by Schwarzfeld
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the flap retraction method is a bit of a waste of time, just about all aircraft are landing with full flap which is mainly drag and not lift, it's a distraction to be operating flaps when you should be concentrating on finishing the job of landing (it isn't over until you are parked), if you are worried about getting airborne again because of flap then you landed too fast, on an after landing roll out you are so far below stall speed that there should be pretty much no lift generated so the theory about more weight on wheels for extra braking sounds a bit of a myth. I have noticed an increasing number of UK PPL's are doing this when I do their biennial check rides and most of the time they start drifting off centreline as they fumble for the flaps.

it's supposedly a recommended technique for short field operations in some aircraft POH's but people are doing it on 2000 metres of tarmac....baffling.

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My CFI in a piper cub once bit my head off for touching down and then immediately pulling the carb heat during rollout. I didn't deviate off centerline but he said with so many more cuss words that rollout is the hardest and most important part, you can fumble with levers later.

 

Agreed on the pulling flaps up on touchdown, my very first CFI in a 172 said very frankly that you can mess with the flaps once you've cleared the active. Aside from that, if you're still catching air, you (like bongo said) touched down too soon, too fast. Best way to slow an airplane down on landing and on initial rollout is to have stalled it over the pavement, stopping it with the brakes is for taxiing or the very very very end of rollout, in my experience. In the Piper Cub, I think I only ever used the heel brakes to pivot tightly while taxiing, or finally stop the aircraft in front of the hanger, and nothing else.


Edited by Schwarzfeld
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Yep, and some people will vehemently argue that a landing roll is a low workload period and pilots should be able to multi task, it's that kind of complacency that get you into trouble, I wonder what excuse these people would give when they hand the keys back of a wrecked aeroplane?

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I think the only time I found landing rollout to be a low workload period was in a 172 or a Cherokee/Arrow when I was a kid learning to fly at KSNA (John Wayne Airport, California coastline), but then again, A.) Its a 172, any idiot could fly one, and B.) The weather is always great there, and small acft have a dedicated rwy so no wake turbulence from the heavies.

 

Almost every acft in DCS thus far that I've seen requires max attn during landing rollout, oddly enough some of the jets I find more difficult to curb the hunting and pecking vs. the taildraggers, I find the 109 my personal favorite, its narrow gear has taken literally months to master but now that I own that portion of it, I feel like its really quite easy on rollout once you train yourself to throw aileron into the wind, rudder as needed for x-wind and you're able to eyeball the rwy sidelines and tap the brakes to keep it straight.

 

Still though, thats an acquired skill and screwing with stuff on rollout is a bad habit to pick up.

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I tried some landings at 37 knots x-wind.

Oh my..

Near impossible to hold it straight, especially in the last part of the rollout.

 

Managed only one landing in mostly one piece, but damaged the wing a bit.

Could not hold it on the runway though, so not pretty. :) :

 

vBxLC1O.jpg

 

zQ0FJet.jpg

 

Notice the IAS: 27 kts even if I'm standing still! :D :D

Did set the wind to 37 kts at 33 feet, but this is the result.

 

Best attempt before that ended like this. :D :

 

yFTURj4.jpg

 

But, it made sense when I afterwards read that apparently safe x-wind limit is 20 knots for the spitfire. :)

And I did manage one or two more ok landing at 19 knots.

 

Best results seem to be with flaps up.

The higher speed makes it slightly easier to keep her straight when touching down.


Edited by Sporg
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Great landing in the 190!

 

In the Spit I never idle before touching down in the three wheels, and I retract the flaps asap, to increase adherence.

 

Which is what my CFI taught me to do, for the very same reason. I have found it works great in CloD and DCS, with the exception of the DCS Spitfire, which I haven't flown enough to decide.

 

In R/L, I started the flaps up as I flared. The electric drive motor was just at the right speed to slowly decrease lift, and eliminate any tendency to balloon. BTW, I have flown just about everything Cessna makes, with the exception of the jets and the crop dusters.

TWC_SLAG

 

Win 10 64 bit, 2T Hard Drive, 1T SSD, 500GB SSD, ASUS Prime Z390 MB, Intel i9 9900 Coffee Lake 3.1mhz CPU, ASUS 2070 Super GPU, 32gb DDR4 Ram, Track IR5, 32” Gigabyte curved monitor, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pedals, Voice Attack, hp Reverb G2.

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Which is what my CFI taught me to do, for the very same reason. I have found it works great in CloD and DCS, with the exception of the DCS Spitfire, which I haven't flown enough to decide.

 

In R/L, I started the flaps up as I flared. The electric drive motor was just at the right speed to slowly decrease lift, and eliminate any tendency to balloon. BTW, I have flown just about everything Cessna makes, with the exception of the jets and the crop dusters.

 

You're a lucky guy Vinnie... I've "only" been flying gliders since I started in 1980, some of them with flaps too :-)

 

The 109 in DCS reminds me a lot of some of the older models btw :-)

Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream...

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You're a lucky guy Vinnie... I've "only" been flying gliders since I started in 1980, some of them with flaps too :-)

 

The 109 in DCS reminds me a lot of some of the older models btw :-)

 

There was a time when I worked at Cessna. Got to do a lot of delivery flights on the weekends.

 

I used to belong to one of the glider clubs here in Houston. During that time, I owned a Phoebus B1, and then a Libelle201B. Wish I still had that one. :)

 

Cheers


Edited by TWC_SLAG

TWC_SLAG

 

Win 10 64 bit, 2T Hard Drive, 1T SSD, 500GB SSD, ASUS Prime Z390 MB, Intel i9 9900 Coffee Lake 3.1mhz CPU, ASUS 2070 Super GPU, 32gb DDR4 Ram, Track IR5, 32” Gigabyte curved monitor, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pedals, Voice Attack, hp Reverb G2.

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There was a time when I worked at Cessna. Got to do a lot of delivery flights on the weekends.

 

I used to belong to one of the glider clubs here in Houston. During that time, I owned a Phoebus B1, and then a Libelle201B. Wish I still had that one. :)

 

Cheers

 

I started learning tailwheel out in Angleton with a crusty old racing pilot from his grass field, he took me to LBX for wet pavement fun one day.... had me do a touch n go behind a Dow jet for shits lol... I volunteered at the flight museum on GLS (moving to EFD soon!) when I lived down there. Man I can't imagine flying in and around Houston proper for a living though, the air traffic is bonkers. Moved to Dallas recently, much nicer weather for a California boy like me.

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I started learning tailwheel out in Angleton with a crusty old racing pilot from his grass field, he took me to LBX for wet pavement fun one day.... had me do a touch n go behind a Dow jet for shits lol... I volunteered at the flight museum on GLS (moving to EFD soon!) when I lived down there. Man I can't imagine flying in and around Houston proper for a living though, the air traffic is bonkers. Moved to Dallas recently, much nicer weather for a California boy like me.

 

The club I belonged to was way out west of Houston proper. It took me 90 min to drive there. By the time an airliner came near us, the were at 10-12000 feet.

 

Do I understand you right? The museum in Galveston is moving to Ellington? That's 10 min north of me. I live in League City.

 

Speaking of weather, my goal is to never live north of I-10 again.

 

Thanks

TWC_SLAG

 

Win 10 64 bit, 2T Hard Drive, 1T SSD, 500GB SSD, ASUS Prime Z390 MB, Intel i9 9900 Coffee Lake 3.1mhz CPU, ASUS 2070 Super GPU, 32gb DDR4 Ram, Track IR5, 32” Gigabyte curved monitor, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pedals, Voice Attack, hp Reverb G2.

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The club I belonged to was way out west of Houston proper. It took me 90 min to drive there. By the time an airliner came near us, the were at 10-12000 feet.

 

Do I understand you right? The museum in Galveston is moving to Ellington? That's 10 min north of me. I live in League City.

 

Speaking of weather, my goal is to never live north of I-10 again.

 

Thanks

 

Correct, right before I moved to Dallas, Lone Star Flight Museum broke ground on the new facility - at the Christmas party last month at GLS the Museum President told us the EFD facility will be taking on staff by september of this year. Drive over to EFD, its the first thing you can see now from the main HAS sign entrance off the freeway, its a giant hulking black steel frame-up right now. Gonna be awesome, shame I can't work every weekend like I used to.

 

I marshalled acft, led tours, worked for the A&Ps doing maintenance... my first day was doing annual greasing of all the zerk fittings on/in the B-17G - man that plane is BUILT out of zerks. Really miss the crew down there, they are great people and a great family.

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(re: Message #1)

 

This plane is a (insert favorite swear word) to taxi and takeoff. I got the landing 1st time, on the runway touchdown I was at 60 mph and not a bounce. I used the offline quick take-off sortie with the included crosswind that is setup with it.

 

I use the CH Fighterstick, Pro Throttle and Pro Pedals going on now 7 years. Finding the curves sweetspot is the issue with me including throttle and analog RPMs. I set everything at 30. Deadzone for everything is 2. I prefer not to use curves at all. Not using any other cheats, though.

 

This thing is a dream to fly compared to the other 3 WWII birds.

 

SOB to learn!

 

Not ready for combat, yet.

 

Only difference this time around is I now take a pretty strong dose of anti-seizure meds twice a day and that has killed my concentration for study time. Work-in-progress. Booze is off limits for me. I had good party times in my younger days---no regrets. I still have fond memories!!

 

P-51 was also a pain initially until I found its sweetspot setup.

 

I am pretty good flying the circuit pattern takeoffs and landings in both German planes.

 

____________________________B_U_T_____________________________

 

When I switch aircraft, there is a re-adjustment time frame to get re-aquainted with them.

 

I usually stick with just one aircraft at a time for awhile.

 

I'm getting to the senior citizen time frame where my memory isn't what it used to be.

 

I thought attaining age 65 was suppose to be "Live happily ever-after!"


Edited by DieHard

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My only gripe thus far on the flight dynamics of the Spit is the fact that I find it very difficult to believe the plane was so well behaved RE: sideslip and the rudder, it seems to require an awfully little amt of rudder while at speed and flying wherever if is you're going, regardless of the wind.

 

Keeping the ball in the middle is a full time job in the 190, 109 and the P-51 (granted the 51 has very nice, fine adjustment rudder trim!), and I remember in the Cub your feet never really took a break no matter what, unless you found yourself dead into the wind... the Spit, especially in turns and when advancing or pulling throttle seems to require an unrealistically small amount of rudder input.

 

In the 109, you can literally steer the nose with the throttle by torquing one it up or down and the ball will keep you busy all the time, period. In the spit, its like the rudder is on rails most of the time at speed, is that just how it was for real, and it was just that well designed, or....?

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Correct, right before I moved to Dallas, Lone Star Flight Museum broke ground on the new facility - at the Christmas party last month at GLS the Museum President told us the EFD facility will be taking on staff by september of this year. Drive over to EFD, its the first thing you can see now from the main HAS sign entrance off the freeway, its a giant hulking black steel frame-up right now. Gonna be awesome, shame I can't work every weekend like I used to.

 

I marshalled acft, led tours, worked for the A&Ps doing maintenance... my first day was doing annual greasing of all the zerk fittings on/in the B-17G - man that plane is BUILT out of zerks. Really miss the crew down there, they are great people and a great family.

 

Too bad you moved. We coulda had a swingin' time. :)

TWC_SLAG

 

Win 10 64 bit, 2T Hard Drive, 1T SSD, 500GB SSD, ASUS Prime Z390 MB, Intel i9 9900 Coffee Lake 3.1mhz CPU, ASUS 2070 Super GPU, 32gb DDR4 Ram, Track IR5, 32” Gigabyte curved monitor, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pedals, Voice Attack, hp Reverb G2.

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