The hobbldy hoy nature of the ground handling

[Damocles]

What is it about the Spitfire, geometry, weight distribution etc that makes it so much more prone to grounding a wing tip than the 109 ? I wouldn't have really thought it would be any worse and because, unlike the 109, it's main wheels don't toe in, it would maybe be even more stable.

[Krupi]

I think it is all about speed, you need to be landing with no faster than 80mph.

 

Look how slow this landing is and look how much that caster wheel is bouncing.

 

 

It does seem a bit more of a handful than all the real life videos :D

Edited January 10, 2017 by Krupi

[Krupi]

Fantastic WW2 video of a heavy landing, it does sway quite a bit.

 

 

Another landing it is wobbling, quite a bit see the rudder being worked constantly.

 

 

Another, Yo-Yo posted this before.. you can see the wobble and the rudder input, perhaps the wobble is a bit over exaggerated?

 

 

Another WW2 one from 4:30... Keep an eye on the tail wheel it is flicking all over the place.

 

Edited January 11, 2017 by Krupi

[Rlaxoxo]

What I don't like about Spit in DCS Is it's Yaw control at low and high speeds it wobbles way to much.

 

It's really realllllllllly weird on take off in the video you linked Pilot has no issues taking off.

 

Also gears are really slow to retract : /

[bongodriver]

Not a single one of the linked videos plays for me.

[Krupi]

Not a single one of the linked videos plays for me.

 

LOL

 

My apologies made a right pigs ear out of that, they should work fine now :)

[Damocles]

But why is it so much less stable than the 109.

 

The 109 certainly has it's own idiosyncrasies for take off and landing but I never really worry too much about digging in a wing tip. The slightest I attention with the Spitfire though and over it goes. I'm beginning to understand why Spitfires had such a nice and easy wing tip change with a few extra tips thrown in with any set of new wings.

[Krupi]

Load up a track of your landing.

 

The vast majority of my landings at the beginning were terrible, once I slowed down and started to dance on the pedals things became a lot easier however far from perfect, if I lose concentration I will scrap a wing tip.

 

Remember this product is far from being released so this could improve.

[Damocles]

Thanks for your posts Krupi, but it's not specifically about my take offs or landings as such, it might be, but I don't think it's only me that finds the Spit laterally unstable on the ground It's fair to say that any aircraft with a narrow gauge landing gear is going to be less stable on the ground than aircraft such as the 190 or Tempest. Specifically though, when taking off or landing, a constant consideration in the Spit is grounding one wing tip or the other. The 109 on the other hand, despite any pilotage deficiencies on my part, I have no particular concern and yet I would have thought that, given he geometry of the 109 wheels, landing with slip or unbalanced would have meant that it was far more likely to drop a wing in the dirt than the Spit.

[DD_Fenrir]

Tailwheel aircraft are unstable when moving on the ground. That accelerating divergence under lateral load is a feature:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=179253

 

Note the following:

 

Firstly, the behaviour of a TW aircraft on the ground is fundamentally different to that of a “nosedragger” aircraft. This is because unlike a tricycle configuration, a TW aircraft is positively directionally unstable. This describes a condition where the aircraft wants to turn left or right on the ground, whilst the effect is almost exponential in its manifestation. In contrast, tricycle configurations are almost all positively directionally stable; meaning that any tendency to turn left or right on the ground will, for most part damp itself out until its directional tendency is to remain straight.

 

The reason for this is simple: A TW aircraft’s C of G is behind the main wheels, where a tricycle aircraft’s C of G is in front of the main wheels. Once the aircraft has kinetic energy and is in motion, the C of G (the point where the aircraft’s mass acts) will always want to “lead” the aircraft. Or, better put, it will want to overtake the point of the aircraft where most of the directional influences are concentrated, which is usually the point of contact with the ground. I.e. the main wheels. There are numerous factors acting on the airframe which will cause it to either swing left or right when it is in motion. Some of these forces will act to make the aircraft swing left and some to make it swing right. Some of them are strong and some are weak. Some of them increase with ground speed and/or airspeed, and some decrease. In addition, some of these forces act together and multiply their combined effects, and some cancel each other out. The overall effect is that in some form or another, the aircraft WILL want to swing one way or another. Indeed, during one part of the take-off or landing roll, the tendency to swing left or right may reverse depending on what direction the lack of equilibrium is strongest at any particular point.

 

The difference between the Spit and the 109, is that the 109 has a lockable tailwheel which helps significantly, but also that it can take a large brake inputs and not nose over. It has been oft noted by real pilots who've flown both that the 109 is easier to taxi.

[Krupi]

And also why you see a lot of images of people sitting on the tail during taxing

 

There are a few well known incidents where the pilot forgot about the poor chap/gal weighing them down and promptly took off with the taxi weight LOL

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

...The 109 on the other hand, despite any pilotage deficiencies on my part, I have no particular concern and yet I would have thought that, given he geometry of the 109 wheels, landing with slip or unbalanced would have meant that it was far more likely to drop a wing in the dirt than the Spit.

 

and it indeed does if you keep the tailwheel unlocked, which is necessary if you want a "fair" comparison. keep in mind, that the tailwheel locking mechanism was only added at a later point to the 109, after many poor soles lost their lifes already.

[Schwarzfeld]

And then eventually, the option to UNLOCK the tailwheel was removed altogether, same reason.

 

Legendary as it was for killing pilots (even today, with the few left) I find the 109, difficult as it is, to be a far more forgiving acft to takeoff/land, and its solely on acct of the locking tailwheel.

 

It truly blows my mind the Spitfire would have been designed this way and everyone was just cool with it. Even the American piper cub and stearman trainers (which I've flown in) have tailwheels which lock to the rudder until you bring them outside of X degrees, they unlock, then you pull em straight and they lock back in.

[Davee]

What is it about the Spitfire, geometry, weight distribution etc that makes it so much more prone to grounding a wing tip than the 109 ? I wouldn't have really thought it would be any worse and because, unlike the 109, it's main wheels don't toe in, it would maybe be even more stable.

 

IMHO, I think that this aspect is overdone and needs to be tweaked by ED. I expect to see changes forthcoming that will improve dynamics as this early release helps to define shortcomings.

[DD_Fenrir]

There is a post in the bug thread that hints that the behaviour of the Spits tail wheel is not quite as it should be:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=179211

 

This could indicate that something requires tweaking.

 

However, I find taxi, takeoff and landing controllable with practise and concentration and the behaviours consistent with what is described in the post by Chief Instructor.

 

Bear in mind many of the pilots will have come from Tiger Moths, Masters etc, where these same/similar characteristics would have been exhibited at a lower intensity.

 

We mostly come from older sims where perhaps these forces are not modelled so accurately....

Edited January 11, 2017 by DD_Fenrir

[dburne]

We mostly come from older sims where perhaps these forces are not modelled so accurately....

 

Yep that definitely plays a part. Taking off and especially landing the Spit certainly has a learning curve.

[flare2000x]

The one thing that prevented me from dragging a wing tip was holding back pressure on the stick after touchdown. Landings are straight and not that bouncy anymore.

[Damocles]

There is a post in the bug thread that hints that the behaviour of the Spits tail wheel is not quite as it should be:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=179211

 

This could indicate that something requires tweaking.

 

However, I find taxi, takeoff and landing controllable with practise and concentration and the behaviours consistent with what is described in the post by Chief Instructor.

 

Bear in mind many of the pilots will have come from Tiger Moths, Masters etc, where these same/similar characteristics would have been exhibited at a lower intensity.

 

We mostly come from older sims where perhaps these forces are not modelled so accurately....

 

 

Ah! Missed that.

 

I rather suspect that might have something to do with it. The points NightRush raises seem to be quite fair.

[Busterbvi]

IMHO, I think that this aspect is overdone and needs to be tweaked by ED. I expect to see changes forthcoming that will improve dynamics as this early release helps to define shortcomings.

 

I agree, I am having a hard time believing the Mk9 Spit is like this in real life, its pretty much unflyable for me, I just hope this is all sorted for final release. Totally ruins the enjoyment of it. A2A got it right !

[Buzzles]

I agree, I am having a hard time believing the Mk9 Spit is like this in real life, its pretty much unflyable for me, I just hope this is all sorted for final release. Totally ruins the enjoyment of it. A2A got it right !

 

I don't find it any harder than the 109 with an unlocked tail wheel.

 

Maybe because I spent time practicing with that in anticipation of the Spit I don't find it much different.

It is harder than with a locked tailwheel, and definitely much harder than the P-51D's controllable tail wheel, but it still doesn't take that long to get used to it.

[flare2000x]

I don't really get the complaints. I use a twist stick rudder with a really crappy potentiometer and I don't really have much trouble on taxi, takeoff, or landing. It's by far easier than the 109 in my opinion. You have to get used to the braking mechanism and learn to not go full boost on takeoff and hold the stick back on landing.

[Krupi]

I don't really get the complaints. I use a twist stick rudder with a really crappy potentiometer and I don't really have much trouble on taxi, takeoff, or landing. It's by far easier than the 109 in my opinion. You have to get used to the braking mechanism and learn to not go full boost on takeoff and hold the stick back on landing.

 

I just did this and it really made landings a lot easier and it forces you to land with the right speed... :thumbup:

[Yo-Yo]

There is nothing wrong with the tail wheel. The problem of any simulation is a lack of acceleration info. This discussion is ballooning over and over but, as far as I can see, it still can not be understood.

 

There are 3 brilliant essays from the Master... and all of them are in vain. Pity.

 

There are two ways to get this sense of accelerations - training using visual cues (clouds, for example) or use TO assistant. The last is not a cheat - it does exactly the same as your real world system that allows you to stand and walk as a Homo Erectus, because it is UNSTABLE attitude.

 

The "exaggerated wobbling" is not a model flaw - it's a classic overcontrolling due to the same reason. The magic pill is - training.

 

And finally - not to wake anybody's frustration, but only to encourage to train real skill and not to stop at the simplified FMs, look at a couple of videos.

 

(TO assistant is OFF, for sure)

 

 

 

[Johnny Dioxin]

Tailwheel aircraft are unstable when moving on the ground.

 

Well I don't recall having any issues at all in my Chipmunk! :clown:

 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Brixmis

[Yo-Yo]

Well I don't recall having any issues at all in my Chipmunk! :clown:

 

 

So I don't too when I riding a bike slowly...:-)